The Water Margin

[jw5]

Chinese football. Gao Qiu was a very good player. Originally he was just a servant under the Prince Consort. By chance he was sent to delivery a set of jade lions to the Prince consort's brother-in-law the future emperor. At that time the prince was having a game and the ball came to Gao Qiu's direction. Instinctively he intercepted the ball and impressed the prince so much that he asked to have him transferred to his household.

When the prince became emperor Gao Qiu was made Grand Marshal.

Bro Wang Ye

Although I didn't read the book and didn't even watch a good tv series (which is why I'm asking), for some reason, I remember the story about Gao Qiu and his soccer playing skills.
I find this really strange.
Never mind, I need to ask you this question.
I thought Yang Zhi was a good ally of Chao Gai, how was he screwed because of them?

 

[moolightaffairs]

My Chinese is pretty poor.
Do you know of any good english translation?

i think some of the bro here already name some translated version. u can try to look around.

 

[goldenmonkey]

Bro Wang Ye

Although I didn't read the book and didn't even watch a good tv series (which is why I'm asking), for some reason, I remember the story about Gao Qiu and his soccer playing skills.
I find this really strange.
Never mind, I need to ask you this question.
I thought Yang Zhi was a good ally of Chao Gai, how was he screwed because of them?

It was not modern day football, but more like a juggling game using a leather? ball. Gao Qiu was good at that.

Yang Zhi was orginally an official working under Liang ShiJie, and after 1 blunder, his last redemption was to trasport the gifts from Liang to Gao. It was intercepted by Chao, Wu and gang. It ended Yang's career with the court, and he was a decendant of the famous Yang family of generals (Yang jia jiang).


The story was well-received as there are many subplots and invitation to debate on the good and bad of each character. Was Song wrong to accept the amensty which were proven ill-fated in the end? Should he have just finish Gao when he had the chance? Li Kui was rash, but he was loyal till the end when he was poisoned by a dying Song and didn't blame his brother.

Wu and Hua Rong committed suicide in the end after they knew about the fate of Song. It was brave for Wu who would be known as a scholar.
Li Jun went away to Thailand and became a warlord/king (which spins off to some other stories).

The saddest character to me was Lin Choong, who could have avenge his wife's death if not for Song. He too committed suicide after knowing Song let Gao off and asked for amensty. Real sad.

 

[rainnix]

I used to play this dos operating system based game called "Bandits", which was based on the characters in the folk tale "The Water Margin".
For those who have interest or knowledge about The Water Margin, hope hat you can join in the discussion and help me to answer the following questions:

1. Does anyone know where or how to download a version of this game from a safe and reliable website or whether such a game exists?

2. I remember watching a tv series based on the Water Margin many years ago, but it seemed to be a China production with actors and actresses who were all unfamiliar to me. The lighting also seemed very dark at all times.
Does anyone know of any more recent production from HK or Taiwan with more well known actors and actresses?

3. The characters I know include Lin Chong, who I believe was a government official who was set up by some corrupt officials and his wife was killed. Also Wu Song who of couse killed a tiger, and was the brother in law of the infamous Pan Jin Lian. But the other characters seem to have less story about them. Are there any famous characters with interesting stories?

Hope all of you including Bro Shi Jin will join in this discussion.

1. China's production of the serial drama is on www.tudou.com
2. Also watch 百家讲坛 鲍鹏山新说水浒. Characters include 林冲、武松、李逵、鲁智深. A very nice series with good analysis from Mr. Bao.
3. Also search on audio books of 水泊梁山 by 袁阔成. Listening to it now.

 

[elephanto]

Yang Zhi was orginally an official working under Liang ShiJie,Liang Zhiong Shu and after 1 blunder, his last redemption was to trasport the gifts from Liang to Gao. I.... Real sad.

Good recap.

Real greek tragedy, the way all these heroes who were vividly portrayed in the early part of the novel, ended up with unjust endings.....

GongSunSheng, the Toaist Priest, saw the Tao early & went into recluse soon after the 108 Unity Celebration...

Yes, besides LiJun, a few others escape to islands in the South Seas, especially those fishermen...

Lin Chong is the No 1 tragic Hero - he could have been Boss after killing WangLun, the original LiangShan Boss, but humbly stepped aside for CaoGai to ascend to the throne. I think his kungfu is in the top tier of the warriors ...Head Coach of the 800,000 imperial guards (In the Lao Fu Zi version, Lin Chong embarassingly admit to LaoFuZi, 800,000 is a 'how-seow' number used to fool the public...not so many LOL !!! )

 

[elephanto]

1. China's production of the serial drama is on www.tudou.com
2. Also watch 百家讲坛 鲍鹏山新说水浒. Characters include 林冲、武松、李逵、鲁智深. A very nice series with good analysis from Mr. Bao.
3. Also search on audio books of 水泊梁山 by 袁阔成. Listening to it now.

Good leads bro rainix, but no. 2 & 3 any links or must go search Baidu?

 

[Wang Ye]

I know someone from way back then, who buys every issue of Lau Fu Zi in the A4 size format...I use to read every issue from him, for he read every issue of my MAD magazine...

He still have the Lau Fu Zi's..I lost my MAD Magazines... , and guards them now like 'imperial treasures'..for they are njow Priceless..including the "the water margin series'..evern much more priceles...maybe we can break into the 'imperial palace' to steal them!

Anyway...we had to read the Chinese classics way back then , Water Margin Included....and the 'ywllow books' as we got cultured..CHINESE CULTURE!!!

Hahahaha MAD magazines in those days were good. Still waiting for the re-print for the Water Margin Lao Fu Zi to date still no luck.

Reminds me of the old saying "A good man does not read Water Margin and a good lady does not read Dream of Red Chambers".

 

[Wang Ye]

Bro Wang Ye
Never mind, I need to ask you this question.
I thought Yang Zhi was a good ally of Chao Gai, how was he screwed because of them?

Looks like bro goldenmonkey beat me to it.

 

[Wang Ye]

The story was well-received as there are many subplots and invitation to debate on the good and bad of each character. Was Song wrong to accept the amensty which were proven ill-fated in the end? Should he have just finish Gao when he had the chance? Li Kui was rash, but he was loyal till the end when he was poisoned by a dying Song and didn't blame his brother.

Wu and Hua Rong committed suicide in the end after they knew about the fate of Song. It was brave for Wu who would be known as a scholar.
Li Jun went away to Thailand and became a warlord/king (which spins off to some other stories).

The saddest character to me was Lin Choong, who could have avenge his wife's death if not for Song. He too committed suicide after knowing Song let Gao off and asked for amensty. Real sad.

Well my take is nothing wrong with wanting to clear their names but in light of the situation at court pretty much pointless. He should have finished off Gao Qiu and fulfill the motto of Liangshan.

Hahaha looks like I am not the only onee aware of this addition. Yup. according to Shui Hu Hou Zhuang, Li Jun gathered the surviours and their descendants and left China to eventually become king of Siam where they lived happily ever after. Not as fun but okay reading.

Wait a minute, Lin Chong died of illness and it was during the southern campaign.

 

[jw5]

1. China's production of the serial drama is on www.tudou.com
2. Also watch 百家讲坛 鲍鹏山新说水浒. Characters include 林冲、武松、李逵、鲁智深. A very nice series with good analysis from Mr. Bao.
3. Also search on audio books of 水泊梁山 by 袁阔成. Listening to it now.

Thanks bro rannix.
But do you know of any tv production from HK or Taiwan?

 

[jw5]

It was not modern day football, but more like a juggling game using a leather? ball. Gao Qiu was good at that.

Yang Zhi was orginally an official working under Liang ShiJie, and after 1 blunder, his last redemption was to trasport the gifts from Liang to Gao. It was intercepted by Chao, Wu and gang. It ended Yang's career with the court, and he was a decendant of the famous Yang family of generals (Yang jia jiang).


The story was well-received as there are many subplots and invitation to debate on the good and bad of each character. Was Song wrong to accept the amensty which were proven ill-fated in the end? Should he have just finish Gao when he had the chance? Li Kui was rash, but he was loyal till the end when he was poisoned by a dying Song and didn't blame his brother.

Wu and Hua Rong committed suicide in the end after they knew about the fate of Song. It was brave for Wu who would be known as a scholar.
Li Jun went away to Thailand and became a warlord/king (which spins off to some other stories).

The saddest character to me was Lin Choong, who could have avenge his wife's death if not for Song. He too committed suicide after knowing Song let Gao off and asked for amensty. Real sad.

Bro goldenmonkey

Speaking about the Yang warriors, I'm also very interested in this story.
Watched a Taiwan production which was pretty good.
I think there is also a HK version with people like Andy Lau and Tony Leung, can anyone confirm?
Hmmm, maybe I will start another thread on this.......................

 

[red amoeba]

It was not modern day football, but more like a juggling game using a leather? ball. Gao Qiu was good at that.

Yang Zhi was orginally an official working under Liang ShiJie, and after 1 blunder, his last redemption was to trasport the gifts from Liang to Gao. It was intercepted by Chao, Wu and gang. It ended Yang's career with the court, and he was a decendant of the famous Yang family of generals (Yang jia jiang).


The story was well-received as there are many subplots and invitation to debate on the good and bad of each character. Was Song wrong to accept the amensty which were proven ill-fated in the end? Should he have just finish Gao when he had the chance? Li Kui was rash, but he was loyal till the end when he was poisoned by a dying Song and didn't blame his brother.

Wu and Hua Rong committed suicide in the end after they knew about the fate of Song. It was brave for Wu who would be known as a scholar.
Li Jun went away to Thailand and became a warlord/king (which spins off to some other stories).

The saddest character to me was Lin Choong, who could have avenge his wife's death if not for Song. He too committed suicide after knowing Song let Gao off and asked for amensty. Real sad.

actually Song Jiang was once a court official before he had to fled to the mountains to avoid punishment. so, from day one, he is already pro-government even when he was a rebel king, he still harbour hopes that one day, he will return as an official and not live a life as a bandit.

Hence, when the offer came (it came twice) - first one was saboed by his own "brothers" and caused a big fight. Second time, it came, he accepted and fought later in the name of the Emperor against other rebels.

Its just like Liu Bei ! He was loyal to the Han court (who becos he is one of the heir to the throne) and his "brothers" Guan Yu, Zhang Fei stuck to him, which indirectly makes them loyal to the "government" as well.

In both these cases, Song Jiang and Liu Bei are revered by people and they become symbols of these 2 stories.

And the starking thing is, they are dead "pro-government" despite the governments (in both cases) being corrupted and mismanaged.

 

[Shi Jin]

Thanks bro Shi Jin and Elephanto

I remember Wu Yong in the game.
Good player and a clever type, able to create magic but not a strong fighter.

In the game Wu Yong's magic is rather limited since he can only cast magic once.

 

[Shi Jin]

Good recap.

Real greek tragedy, the way all these heroes who were vividly portrayed in the early part of the novel, ended up with unjust endings.....

GongSunSheng, the Toaist Priest, saw the Tao early & went into recluse soon after the 108 Unity Celebration...

Only a handful came to a good ending.

Gongsun Sheng, Zhu Wu and Fan Rui all retreated to the mountains to cultivate Tao.

Wu Song became a real monk and died of old age. Lu Zhisheng was also a good one. Basically just discarded his mortal shell and moved on. Chai Jin continued with his rich man's life.

 

[elephanto]

I dunno about the game.

In the Book, the 108 is divided into 36 heavenly Stars & 72 earthly stars.

according to their ranking, the top '5 Tigers generals' are:-
'Big Sabre' Guan Sheng
'Leopard Head' Lin Chong
'Thunder Fire' Qing Ming
'Little Archer' Hua Rong
'Double Spear' Dong Ping

Hope my memory is correct.
Sori Bro Shi Jin - seems yr kung fu not in their category
Is it the same in the game ?

 

[elephanto]

Speaking about the Yang warriors, I'm also very interested in this story

Other than 'Water Margin' & 'Romance of Three Kingdoms', there are other Family-Related Tales I like as a child :-
- 杨家将 Yang
- 岳家将 Yue fei both are Song dynasty tales
- 罗家将 Luo - in early Tang Dynasty

As a kid reading the classics as well as the comics version, another favourite of mine is
封神榜 - Investiture of the Gods, the story of Ne Zha, Er Lang Shen, Jiang Zi Ya .... a fairy tale story of how Chou Dynasty came to be....

I thought it was the ultimate in mythology & fantasy no less inferior to the Greek mythologies like Clash of Titans & Medusa .... too bad Chinese Directors & Animators have not conceived of how to portray the wonderful narrative of 'heavenly weapons' 法宝 into modern day multimedia !

It would rock modern audiences ! 四大天王，托塔天王， 金咤，木咤，哪咤，二郎神，土行孙， 雷震子 。。。。all the imaginary weapons, beasts & prowesses ......

 

[Spock]

And the starking thing is, they are dead "pro-government" despite the governments (in both cases) being corrupted and mismanaged.

This is because ancient China has heavy censorship, oops, even now still has heavy censorship. Probably not allowed to over-glorify characters who are extremely anti-government. Sounds like the situation in Sg as well.

 

[jw5]

Other than 'Water Margin' & 'Romance of Three Kingdoms', there are other Family-Related Tales I like as a child :-
- 杨家将 Yang
- 岳家将 Yue fei both are Song dynasty tales
- 罗家将 Luo - in early Tang Dynasty

As a kid reading the classics as well as the comics version, another favourite of mine is
封神榜 - Investiture of the Gods, the story of Ne Zha, Er Lang Shen, Jiang Zi Ya .... a fairy tale story of how Chou Dynasty came to be....

I thought it was the ultimate in mythology & fantasy no less inferior to the Greek mythologies like Clash of Titans & Medusa .... too bad Chinese Directors & Animators have not conceived of how to portray the wonderful narrative of 'heavenly weapons' 法宝 into modern day multimedia !

It would rock modern audiences ! 四大天王，托塔天王， 金咤，木咤，哪咤，二郎神，土行孙， 雷震子 。。。。all the imaginary weapons, beasts & prowesses ......

In the Yang warriors, is the story mainly about the female warriors in the family?
My vague understanding of the story is that most of the males in the family died in battle. I think one of the sons went off to marry the daughter of one of their enemies, another one became a monk. Only one stayed to fight with the female warriors but eventually he died as well, didn't he?
In the tv series, most of the warriors were the wives of the dead brothers and also a sister whom they called "ba mei" or eighth sister. The family also had a loyal bodyguard who was in love with ba mei.

 

[moolightaffairs]

Lin Chong is the No 1 tragic Hero - he could have been Boss after killing WangLun, the original LiangShan Boss, but humbly stepped aside for CaoGai to ascend to the throne. I think his kungfu is in the top tier of the warriors ...Head Coach of the 800,000 imperial guards (In the Lao Fu Zi version, Lin Chong embarassingly admit to LaoFuZi, 800,000 is a 'how-seow' number used to fool the public...not so many LOL !!! )

林冲 is the qiang bang zhong jiao tou, that means spear and stick chief instructor. got another chief instructor call wang jin, he came out in the beginning of the story. anyone remember what he specialize in?

 

[moolightaffairs]

杨家将

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this is the best version of 杨家将! its by China and a very old one. follow closely to the story book we read.