The Ultimax & the Americans

[dankos]

any1 trained in v200 amour personal carrier?? built in 1970, even older than me. tiu.

i from fds but kena made to go for 8 week conversion course b4 i rod. that was becos v200 was handed over from sada to fds. still remember in the conversion course every mother fucker damn tulan. cos together with me were a whole bunch of come back from disruption ncos and officers. they tot they sure kena some 8 to 5 posting to serve finish their disruption. also the enciks etc were arrowed to conduct the conversion course.

trainee not happy, trainer not happy. u can guess how the 8 weeks go.

 

[steffychun]

Our 'famed' SAR-21 is but another knock off of the Israeli's TAR-21

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAR-21

Actually also a copy cat of the British SA 80

 

[steffychun]

The British Army bought our Broncos though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronco_All_Terrain_Tracked_Carrier

 

[Windsor]

In short, the steep learning curve all paid for by taxpayers. They went into all these projects without a clue how to profit from them, but they have plenty of ideas how to innovate schemes to milk the locals. On hindsight perhaps they should have bought the weapons instead of having such expensive projects that are failures economic-wise. No neighbour would buy them even if we give them at cost. Good examples are Refurbished A-4 Skyhawks, Bionix, SAR-21, Ultimax and etc. Singaporeans will never know how much was spent in these ventures but I am pretty sure our yearly defence budget will give an indication.

 

[Amakusa Kourin]

Neither is completely homogeneous, and India is famously heterogeneous.

They may not be completely homogeneous but they are recognised as homogeneous nations. You might be right about India, but Japan is definitely considered homogeneous (although as most know, they are a combination of Jomon, Yayoi, natives and escaped Chinese in the past)

 

[Amakusa Kourin]

I don't blame the diplomats for their haughty attitude. After all, the Hakka boss is also one arrogant man himself in the first place. Chinese saying goes, when there is something to be learned, it will be learnt.

 

[steffychun]

Singapore can only profit from sales to Brunei.

 

[HTOLAS]

The Jomon and Yayoi cultures are quite indistinguishable from what we know as Japanese culture. I am thinking more of the Okinawans, the Ainu, the Buraku-min (not a different culture but more a 'caste'), etc.

They may not be completely homogeneous but they are recognised as homogeneous nations. You might be right about India, but Japan is definitely considered homogeneous (although as most know, they are a combination of Jomon, Yayoi, natives and escaped Chinese in the past)

 

[fukyuman]

That V200 armored 4 wheel drive is another hopeless case. High centre of gravity so often slid and toppled over. Many NSmen got crushed to death. The 20mm gun always jammed, including the co-axial gmpg with the useless belt feed, so the crew have only 2 working gpmg to shoot with. The firing ports for riflemen inside are a joke. Straps are improvised to make sure the AR15 rifles barrels point outside the vehicle after one joker pull the trigger to soon and shot 5 mates when the bullets ricochet inside the vehicle. The M113 replacement were much better, having gone through Vietnam war.

The skyhawks took many young pilot lives, including a squadron of 4 who flew into a side of the mountain in Philippines. The only survivor was Major Tsu Way Ming who did not fly when his skyhawk A-4 developed problems before take off. He was to fly and crash MI 185 18 years later. Many are of the opinion that he dove the ill fated flight into Palembang river along with 103 innocent passengers and crew.

any1 trained in v200 amour personal carrier?? built in 1970, even older than me. tiu.

 

[scroobal]

The reason the British bought the Warthog for Afghanistan was that one country could provide such vehicles at short notice as it was in production to fulfill SAF orders. British mothers who lost their sons to IEDs were pressuring the Govt and Labour were doing badly in the polls.

One Malaysian general quibed famously after retirement that he never saw a more commercially minded army.

 

[johnny333]

The firing ports for riflemen inside are a joke. Straps are improvised to make sure the AR15 rifles barrels point outside the vehicle after one joker pull the trigger to soon and shot 5 mates when the bullets ricochet inside the vehicle.......

Heard that many of these weapons are being developed by imported foreigners. NS is bad enough but to die from shoddy weapons is kind of tragic.

Sporeans are treated as guinea pigs e.g. new water, stop at two policy, ....We are/have paying/paid a heavy price :(

 

[Papsmearer]

That V200 armored 4 wheel drive is another hopeless case. High centre of gravity so often slid and toppled over. Many NSmen got crushed to death. The 20mm gun always jammed, including the co-axial gmpg with the useless belt feed, so the crew have only 2 working gpmg to shoot with. The firing ports for riflemen inside are a joke. Straps are improvised to make sure the AR15 rifles barrels point outside the vehicle after one joker pull the trigger to soon and shot 5 mates when the bullets ricochet inside the vehicle. The M113 replacement were much better, having gone through Vietnam war.

The skyhawks took many young pilot lives, including a squadron of 4 who flew into a side of the mountain in Philippines. The only survivor was Major Tsu Way Ming who did not fly when his skyhawk A-4 developed problems before take off. He was to fly and crash MI 185 18 years later. Many are of the opinion that he dove the ill fated flight into Palembang river along with 103 innocent passengers and crew.

The V200 was never designed for the role that the SAF employed it in. Originally developed by Cadillac Cage for the rapid reaction defence of US air bases particularly in Vietnam. It needed wheels to get to the perimeter fast and with a complement of troops who were supposed to dismount and get supported by the 20 mm gun. Hence, it was supposed to travel on path roads, not really an offroad vehicle. Not surprising many overturned when used outside their intended performance envelop.

A-4 crash in Phillippines was human error, not a problem with the A-4. They were formation flying in the valleys, misty and poor visibility, and followed the flight leader into a controlled flight into terrain. Same happened with the USAF Thunderbirds flying T-33 in the 1983.

 

[Papsmearer]

Heard that many of these weapons are being developed by imported foreigners. NS is bad enough but to die from shoddy weapons is kind of tragic.

Sporeans are treated as guinea pigs e.g. new water, stop at two policy, ....We are/have paying/paid a heavy price :(

I have no problem with this. There are many good designers in the west. Singapore has no tradition of weapons manufacturing or designing.

 

[dankos]

The V200 was never designed for the role that the SAF employed it in. Originally developed by Cadillac Cage for the rapid reaction defence of US air bases particularly in Vietnam. It needed wheels to get to the perimeter fast and with a complement of troops who were supposed to dismount and get supported by the 20 mm gun. Hence, it was supposed to travel on path roads, not really an offroad vehicle. Not surprising many overturned when used outside their intended performance envelop.

A-4 crash in Phillippines was human error, not a problem with the A-4. They were formation flying in the valleys, misty and poor visibility, and followed the flight leader into a controlled flight into terrain. Same happened with the USAF Thunderbirds flying T-33 in the 1983.

in the end, saf did deploy the v200 back to all the airbases.

but lets just say its really cockup. they require the PC to act as the VC for the command vehicle. the PC is also expected to lead the infantry platoon that the v200 is carrying when contacting ground enemies. so whenever there is contact, the PC got to remove the CVC helmet that he is wearing and change to a normal helmet and lead his infantry platoon. i had lots of this change helmet parade practice.

 

[wikiphile]

I have no problem with this. There are many good designers in the west. Singapore has no tradition of weapons manufacturing or designing.

the last time they tried, they built this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR-80

It is quite a 'legendary' weapon, oft heard but rarely seen. My friend who was at the Mandai Ammo dump saw a couple of these

 

[HTOLAS]

On this I can speak with some authority. This weapon was issued to me in the early 1980s. Its plusses for the soldier include:

• high accuracy - better than M16 of the day;
• low recoil;
• relatively easy to field-strip.

Plusses for the army:

• cheap to make - used stamped instead of moulded parts;
• don't need to pay licence to Colt for manufacturing the M16 - we used to be the biggest maker of M16s outside the US;
• because of its similarity to the M16, no need for substantial retraining.

Minuses for soldier:

• very loud, especially for the person to the right of the firer;
• awkward to carry around because of the lack of carrying handle and poor balance of the weapon;
• low aesthetics and unremarkable look of the weapon (unlike the distinct profile of AK47, FAMAS or M16).

I was also told that while it was good for the soldier to maintain, it was hell for the armourer - carbon deposits in weird places, etc.

The biggest problem though is that it did not represent a large enough technical leap or cost savings from the previous weapons to justify a change. This made it difficult to market the thing as well.

the last time they tried, they built this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR-80

It is quite a 'legendary' weapon, oft heard but rarely seen. My friend who was at the Mandai Ammo dump saw a couple of these

 

[wikiphile]

On this I can speak with some authority. This weapon was issued to me in the early 1980s. Its plusses for the soldier include:

• high accuracy - better than M16 of the day;
• low recoil;
• relatively easy to field-strip.

Plusses for the army:

• cheap to make - used stamped instead of moulded parts;
• don't need to pay licence to Colt for manufacturing the M16 - we used to be the biggest maker of M16s outside the US;
• because of its similarity to the M16, no need for substantial retraining.

Minuses for soldier:

• very loud, especially for the person to the right of the firer;
• awkward to carry around because of the lack of carrying handle and poor balance of the weapon;
• low aesthetics and unremarkable look of the weapon (unlike the distinct profile of AK47, FAMAS or M16).

I was also told that while it was good for the soldier to maintain, it was hell for the armourer - carbon deposits in weird places, etc.

The biggest problem though is that it did not represent a large enough technical leap or cost savings from the previous weapons to justify a change. This made it difficult to market the thing as well.

I wished i had a chance to fire it and see for myself what this weapon could really do but not possible. Last i heard, some stocks was sold to some rebels in Africa

 

[Papsmearer]

in the end, saf did deploy the v200 back to all the airbases.

but lets just say its really cockup. they require the PC to act as the VC for the command vehicle. the PC is also expected to lead the infantry platoon that the v200 is carrying when contacting ground enemies. so whenever there is contact, the PC got to remove the CVC helmet that he is wearing and change to a normal helmet and lead his infantry platoon. i had lots of this change helmet parade practice.

I think the PC also operates the turret and its 20mm? Not too sure about this.Anyway, u were supposed to fire the RBS-70 from the open hatch on top of the vehicle. I wonder if the driver willl get fried by the backblast. LOL.

 

[dankos]

I think the PC also operates the turret and its 20mm? Not too sure about this.Anyway, u were supposed to fire the RBS-70 from the open hatch on top of the vehicle. I wonder if the driver willl get fried by the backblast. LOL.

in airbase, our doctrine dictates that the driver hatch must be closed and that includes when driving. lol. damn limited vision.

 

[Papsmearer]

On this I can speak with some authority. This weapon was issued to me in the early 1980s. Its plusses for the soldier include:

• high accuracy - better than M16 of the day;
• low recoil;
• relatively easy to field-strip.

Plusses for the army:

• cheap to make - used stamped instead of moulded parts;
• don't need to pay licence to Colt for manufacturing the M16 - we used to be the biggest maker of M16s outside the US;
• because of its similarity to the M16, no need for substantial retraining.

Minuses for soldier:

• very loud, especially for the person to the right of the firer;
• awkward to carry around because of the lack of carrying handle and poor balance of the weapon;
• low aesthetics and unremarkable look of the weapon (unlike the distinct profile of AK47, FAMAS or M16).

I was also told that while it was good for the soldier to maintain, it was hell for the armourer - carbon deposits in weird places, etc.

The biggest problem though is that it did not represent a large enough technical leap or cost savings from the previous weapons to justify a change. This made it difficult to market the thing as well.

Its just a piece of shit with no redeeming feature. I had the misfortune to spend some time with this crap. CIS wanted to make a much cheaper M-16 type weapon, and this was it. The lack of quality is really obvious. Cheap materials, cheap feel, and much heavier than the M-16/AR-15. I can't say it was more accurate than the M-16, and I know it was less reliable. Lets face it, when the SAF rejects this weapon and went back to the M-16, it tells u a lot. Since when does the SAF reject any CIS products? I am sure the cost savings were there, but a lot of it is dependent on a large production run to lower the average cost per rifle and to spread the unit cost for development and set up of production over as many rifles as possible. Since the SAF did not buy in quantity and the export market was not there, its was a big egg in the face of CIS and big lost.