Tamil rule in South East Asia. A short history.

[syed putra]

It's a good point. Eastern Europeans have white skin, but they are far less developed than western europe. The term 'The West, is used not to define Europe, but more specifically, the developed G8 societies of Europe. Countries like Spain and Italy are loosely associated with the 'West' depending on whether you focus on their economic power or on how much you dislike them for their colonial past.

Eastern Europe was under eastern roman rule centred in constantinople, now renamed as Istanbul. It was never undeveloped until it fell under communism. It was still boisterous under Turkish rule. Cities like Sophia, Budapest, Kiev are all testament to their eminence.

 

[Nice-Gook]

paiseh, but in 1962 wasn't it was Republic of China in United Nations instead of People Republic of China?

maybe more likely India recognized PRC as the legit country instead of ROC in 1949 yet still kenna whacked in 1962 so felt betrayed?

there are many versions of this ,quite debatable but my understanding is this ...it all has to with Nehru and Mao as a personalities, nothing to do with the people at large ...but that 1962 move by Mao created a permanent scar ,especially with the Indian burecracy who never forgotten it till today

Nehru is said to be a brilliant man ,Oxford educated who came from higher aristocratic society upbringing thus having all the qualities ...but a socialist with a typically Indian psyche of an emotional fool ..rumoured to had Lord Mounbatten's wife as his mistress ..Mao is exactly the opposite ,a hard core communist whose lessons in life was wrought on the roads so as to speak ..hence they saw the border issues with different lenses

another main factor is the quality of their armies as of at that time ...Mao's PLA is battle hardened and was very willing to fight ..The Indian army had split into two ,one Indian and another Pakistan but had within the ranks had highly professional lot ,since 2 millions who had fought the world war 11 ....but Nehru had openly said ,"why do we need an army when we have the police ".hence the Indian army poorly equipped

so ,you can imagine the differences...but Nehru was also playing tough despite Cho En Lai ,the PM of PRC ,peace move who came personally to India for negotiation ...Nehru than initiated what was called the forward move ,meaning their soldiers to move to border areas previously claimed but with no soldiers presence ...the PRC read that as an aggressive signal to fight

what Nehru thought he had all figured out since he was globally respected ...incidentally LKY had expressed his admiration fir him too

suddenly the Chinese troops stormed from the most unexpected terrains ..waves after waves...india rushed reinforcements only to be slaughtered since most Indian troops were not even equipped with the very basic needs such as boots for the snowy terrain ...the chinese covered huge tracks in days quite swift .the Indian commanding general was a political appointee and he did not even use the Indian Air force ,and that would have effectively cut of the Chinese troops from all logistics ...India now woke up to the reality...couple of thing happened

they had a most celeberated and decorated general who fought in both world wars replacing the one in charge ...his first order to his officers were ,there shall be no retreat, be prepared to fight to your last breath

the second scenario was ,there were ethnicities like the Tamils who were fighting for separation from india....all than closed up as 1 United people and ordinary men and women lined up and start donating their jewllaries and blood

so,the Sino indo war had actually united India more than dividing it ...in some respect India should thank china for that

the issue was border..but India and China never shared a common border previously ...but since china walked into Tibet in 1950 ,it now became a matter between china and India..the matter was not a serious one since the border was drawn by a British guy McMahon ...and there was no need to go to a full fledged battle ...but when Dalai Lama fled Tibet India gave refuge and China saw it as future plan to unstabilise china

 

[Hypocrite-The]

thks for sharing your opinion. What you say goes further to prove my point. Everyone outside the middle kingdom is a barbarian. That's why they were focused on keeping them out. Why in the hell would you go to barbarian lands for? have to point out that yuan is mongolian. The expedition that is in the bottom of some bay in Japan was full of Mongols not tiongs. Although I will say that the distinction in northern China between tiongs and mongols is not sharp anymore. After all, Beijing is a Mongolian town.


After the Mongolian invasion, China had little time left for itself as you say. The Europeans and their rivalry came onto China's doorstep. The gun powder definitely came from China, but the compartmentalized bulk heads they copied later.



I have a simpler version of what you say. Both Europe and China had foreign barbarian invaders. But europeans were competing with each other unlike China which assumed they were #1 and the rest of the world is full of smelly barbarians. Europeans did everything they could to gain a competitive advantage over other Europeans. They went to angkat the smelly barbarians for land and resources so that they could beat other Europeans.

The 2nd mongol invasion of Japan consisted of alot of tiongs. The 1st invasion used kim chee sailors

 

[ilovechinesegal]

Yes. End up like bangkok where malay girls dance half naked on stage and become prostitutes.

Dont insult the thai! Some thai are fair and yellow skin but not shit skin!

 

[syed putra]

Dont insult the thai! Some thai are fair and yellow skin but not shit skin!

I was insulting ch8nese leadership.

 

[ilovechinesegal]

I was insulting ch8nese leadership.

Ya i know! But i dont care i just dont like shits!

 

[syed putra]

However, Thai food is delicious. I just love it.
But I treat every Thai ladies as possible transvestite so I stay away from them.

 

[syed putra]

The 2nd mongol invasion of Japan consisted of alot of tiongs. The 1st invasion used kim chee sailors

The mongols were over stretched.
They should have maintained what they had.plus a proper succession plan for the monarchy. In Persian case, the elder brother was asked by the king on his death bed, to kill his younger brothers. This is to prevent civil war and power disputes.

 

[ilovechinesegal]

However, Thai food is delicious. I just love it.
But I treat every Thai ladies as possible transvestite so I stay away from them.

I also wont try on thai too!

 

[spotter542]

大城府 or Ayutthaya was named after Ayodhya , the birthplace of the Hindu god Rama
Whilst the Phanom Rung temple in Isaan built in Khmer style , was dedicated to Hindu god Shiva and made to represent site of Mt. Kailash
Think Rama IX cremation ceremony also got follow a bit of Hindu customs
Why is the Garuda used in most Thai office buildings and Indon airline ?

 

[Nice-Gook]

大城府 or Ayutthaya was named after Ayodhya , the birthplace of the Hindu god Rama
Whilst the Phanom Rung temple in Isaan built in Khmer style , was dedicated to Hindu god Shiva and made to represent site of Mt. Kailash
Think Rama IX cremation ceremony also got follow a bit of Hindu customs
Why is the Garuda used in most Thai office buildings and Indon airline ?

the fact is India was the apex of civilization for thousand of years influencing the SEA in every way and manner of their lives ...it's very evident in Indonesia...a Muslim country but named its national airlines Garuda, a Hindu mythological bird ...even India itself has a neutral name for its airline ...another fact is the Indian ruling factions largely comes from the Hindhi belt of the central India...and this lot do not take it with pleasure to highlight the Dravidian civilization so as to speak..and it was the Kalinga empire and the Chola empire that made its mark in SEA ,and both were Dravidian civilization ,people of darker skin whreas the present politicians who rules India are the fairer coloured Aryans and they write their versions of Indian history

now ,to my take why Hinduism took root among the royalties of SEA ...because Hinduism justified royalties as a godly right to rule over pesants ...you see ,the Kalinga empire largely favoured Buddhism but that did not sit very well with the Royalties since Buddhism did not endow the royalties with the birth right to rule as a god given right but Hinduism did

the funny thing is ,Buudhism itself was rid of in the very birth place -India itself, because of royalty patronage .Asoka who vanquished the Kalinga empire causing Kalinga princes to establish Buddhist kingdoms in SEA and Sri Lanka seems to be the only emperor who embraced Buddhist philosophy in India itself ..yes ,there were others too but very much less glorious

so,SEA kingdoms seems to have adopted both giving its own versions ...Buddhists in essence but Hindus in rituals ...you would notice such traits even in today's practices

that explains names like Garuda ,Ayothia and Ramayana and even names likes Krishna and Vishnu are Hindus in essence but the population were largely Buddhist except for Indonesia and Malaysia ... in Indonesia the people of Java, particularly ,retains the Hindu aspect of names more than the people of Sumatra ...Sumatra is where you find Islamic fundamentalist more than anywhere in Indonesia

 

[JohnTan]

it is true, mongols were not the only mass slaughterers. There were lots in history, probably enough for multiple books let alone 1 thread. In the Muslim world, the Ottomans were quite probably the worst. Except that there seems to be a greater love for Mongolians in this forum.

I'm not sure if the Ottomans were the worst. But Ottoman imperialism was certainly encouraged by their religious clergy. I understand mad hatter of jiuhu was notably fond of Ottoman imperialism, especially if they were targeted towards taking christian land. That isn't considered as land stealing, according to moslem. It's only land stealing if non-moslems took moslem land.

funny you mention brahmin. Every brahmin I've ever met has been a hypocritical snob and treats everyone else like dirt.

I'm guessing that the concept of brahmin snobbery was introduced by the aryans, who invaded northern india through persia and influence hinduism. Later on, other waves of ethnic aryans included moslems who were turkic or again, persian.

my original point is still there though. Anything that was not contiguous, Chinese did not bother gaining control of. They did follow that NW corridor during the Tang dynasty, but that seems to have been the maximum extent. So how then would you explain more than a 1000 years of Empire with perhaps only marginal shifting of borders? Your NW corridor being the greatest deviation from general borders?

I would disagree that chinkland's borders had only marginal shifting.

The ethnic chinks traced their origins to agricultural villages along the Yellow River, which a small landlocked area. Over centuries, the chink race expanded in all directions, conquering and fending off military conquests. There certainly were other distinct groups living in what is today's chinkland. They may all be mongoloid, but they certainly weren't chink.

The coastal area of chinkland, notably in the south, were not ethnic chink. There were other groups like the Yue. In the Ba and Shu regions, the ethnic groups there were also different and did not submit to chink rule. The chinks only made the south part of their homeland from the 400+AD onwards, when they lost territory in the north due to invasions from various turkic groups.

The territorial domains of each chink dynasty changed. The Tang had more territory than the Sung. The Sung lost most of their north and even half the country in the early 12th century. The Ming managed to retake the north, and the Qing expanded the Ming borders even further, only to lose some of their northern territory eventually to Russia.

This video didn't start from the beginning of chink origins. But it should not be taken that the early various states were one country. They were all independent countries paying nominal respect to a zhou 'emperor'.

 

[mojito]

Some years ago there was yet another local academic who made another dubious claim that the Bujang Valley civilisation in Kedah (Bhujangga means serpent) was not of Indian origin. Instead it was of "some" pagan civilisation ?

Maybe a bunch of Martians stopped by to use the rest area in Merbok and built all those 'candi' in Sungai Batu? You know, just to lepak.

The longest empire (longer than the Roman Empire) to rule a huge swathe of territory was the Tamil Chola empire. The Tamil Cholas ruled from about 400 BC until almost 1300 AD - a time span of almost 1700 years (plus minus sikit lah). The most famous Tamil King was of course Raja Raja Cholan.

Names like Chulia Street and Raja Chulan are obviously linked to the Cholas.

This map below shows the extent of their domains.



Tamil Chola Empire That Lasted 1,700 Years



In contrast the Roman empires (plural) - original, eastern and western - put together lasted less than 1400 years.

Historians will argue if Thailand, Cambodia, all of Indonesia (especially Java, Sumatera and Borneo) and the Malay Peninsula were directly ruled or indirectly ruled by the Tamil Cholas.

But what cannot be denied is that the long passage of time (over 1700 years) of Tamil influence in South East Asia has seen a great influence of the Tamil language and culture in South East Asia. Hence the huge preponderance of Tamil (writing and word usage) in Malay, Thai, Khmer, Javanese and other languages in SEA.

For example in Tamil, bhoomi means earth and putra means prince.

Another example is Thailand where the Thai Kings have Tamil sounding names. King Bhumipol was actually King Rama IX. His siblings were Ananda and Kalyani. He had a daughter named Ratna. Indonesian President Sukarno also named his Japanese wife Ratna Sari Devi (the Queen of the Essence of Jewels).


Kutai Martadipura in East Kalimantan




Then in East Kalimantan the Indian-Hindu Kutai kingdom ruled for almost 1000 years from 400 AD to about 1400 AD - coinciding with the Tamil Chola empire. (Hence the debates over direct rule or indirect rule by the Cholas).

"Kutai Martadipura is a 4th-century or perhaps much earlier Hindu kingdom located in the Kutai area, East Kalimantan"

"Kutai Martadipura adalah kerajaan bercorak Hindu di Nusantara yang memiliki bukti sejarah tertua. Berdiri sekitar abad ke-4.Pusat Kerajaan ini terletak di Muara Kaman, Kalimantan Timur, tepatnya di hulu sungai Mahakam. Nama Kutai diberikan oleh para ahli mengambil dari nama tempat ditemukannya prasasti yang menunjukkan eksistensi kerajaan tersebut."

In Tamil pura (puram) means city or town. For example Ramnada-puram means Ramnad city or town. Martadi sounds too close to marat-tadi which means the 'base of a tree'.

Here are some old yupa (inscribed stone pillars) that have been found in Kutai in East Kalimantan.





As you can see that is certainly close to Tamil type writing.

What is interesting to note is that despite the Kutai Martadipura Hindu kingdom's presence in East Kalimantan for about 1,000 years (with its written record - for example that Tamil type script carved onto stones) the usage of this writing (and any other form of written language) disappeared with the disappearance of the Kutai Kingdom around 1400 AD.

Which suggests that the people who inscribed those stones were actual Indian scribes and not native scribes. (Because that particular written language also died out circa 1400 AD).

The same for the Bujang Valley sites in Kedah where you can see similar South Indian writing inscribed onto the stones.

In contrast you also have South Indian type writing on the stones in Angkor Watt in Cambodia. Here is an example :



The major difference is that today's modern Khmer and Thai writing is still derived from the Indian script. For example this is the modern Thai alphabet :




Here is the modern Khmer alphabet :




And here is the Tamil alphabet :





Akhir kalam, most certainly the Tamil Cholas did not imprint so much of their language and culture onto South East Asia in one week or in a few generations.

Their presence throughout South East Asia from the Sulawesi to Vietnam, Thailand, Suwarna-bhoomi, Cambodia, Myanmar and back to India lasted from 400 BC to past 1300 AD - a span of more than 1700 years.

So you Indian or Malay?

 

[syed putra]

So you Indian or Malay?

Martian. I have no race or faith..

 

[syed putra]

I would disagree that chinkland's borders had only marginal shifting.

The ethnic chinks traced their origins to agricultural villages along the Yellow River, which a small landlocked area. Over centuries, the chink race expanded in all directions, conquering and fending off military conquests. There certainly were other distinct groups living in what is today's chinkland. They may all be mongoloid, but they certainly weren't chink.

The coastal area of chinkland, notably in the south, were not ethnic chink. There were other groups like the Yue. In the Ba and Shu regions, the ethnic groups there were also different and did not submit to chink rule. The chinks only made the south part of their homeland from the 400+AD onwards, when they lost territory in the north due to invasions from various turkic groups.

The territorial domains of each chink dynasty changed. The Tang had more territory than the Sung. The Sung lost most of their north and even half the country in the early 12th century. The Ming managed to retake the north, and the Qing expanded the Ming borders even further, only to lose some of their northern territory eventually to Russia.

This video didn't start from the beginning of chink origins. But it should not be taken that the early various states were one country. They were all independent countries paying nominal respect to a zhou 'emperor

Anyone who has been to china will be amazed at how flat and probably fertile the river plains are. Especially if you board on those new hsr trains to travel from city to city. Or drive in the provinces. Ideal for civilisation. Just as in the Nile, India and Tigris and Euphrates

Ideal for agriculture and eventually cities and trade.

 

[nightsafari]

I'm not sure if the Ottomans were the worst. But Ottoman imperialism was certainly encouraged by their religious clergy. I understand mad hatter of jiuhu was notably fond of Ottoman imperialism, especially if they were targeted towards taking christian land. That isn't considered as land stealing, according to moslem. It's only land stealing if non-moslems took moslem land.

mad hatter will eventually get his comeuppance if he hasn't already gotten it. The Ottomans out of the Muslim rulers are probably the worst. Of course I haven't delved into detail, but they had both the power and the will to do so. I don't think another Muslim empire before or after was as powerful or as cohesive. Btw, thanks for passing on that nugget of him being fond of Ottoman imperialism. I wasn't aware of that.

I'm guessing that the concept of brahmin snobbery was introduced by the aryans, who invaded northern india through persia and influence hinduism. Later on, other waves of ethnic aryans included moslems who were turkic or again, persian.

That's my guess as well.

I would disagree that chinkland's borders had only marginal shifting.

The ethnic chinks traced their origins to agricultural villages along the Yellow River, which a small landlocked area. Over centuries, the chink race expanded in all directions, conquering and fending off military conquests. There certainly were other distinct groups living in what is today's chinkland. They may all be mongoloid, but they certainly weren't chink.

The coastal area of chinkland, notably in the south, were not ethnic chink. There were other groups like the Yue. In the Ba and Shu regions, the ethnic groups there were also different and did not submit to chink rule. The chinks only made the south part of their homeland from the 400+AD onwards, when they lost territory in the north due to invasions from various turkic groups.

The territorial domains of each chink dynasty changed. The Tang had more territory than the Sung. The Sung lost most of their north and even half the country in the early 12th century. The Ming managed to retake the north, and the Qing expanded the Ming borders even further, only to lose some of their northern territory eventually to Russia.

This video didn't start from the beginning of chink origins. But it should not be taken that the early various states were one country. They were all independent countries paying nominal respect to a zhou 'emperor'.

I guess it's a matter of opinion. I see the growth and decline of borders as you presented in that great video. Thanks for posting it up! Compared to the Japanese, China's borders did grow quite a lot, but I'm comparing them with other empires. Alexander's empire, Imperial Rome, mongol empire, British empire, the Spanish and the French empire as short as it was. All these other empires showed an incredible pace of land/territory conquest. For me, I can't think of another empire with such a slow and organic progression of land acquisition as China. That's why I call it marginal. Perhaps incremental would've been better.

 

[nightsafari]

The 2nd mongol invasion of Japan consisted of alot of tiongs. The 1st invasion used kim chee sailors

sailors or combatants? I thought most of the combatants were Mongol and the support crew were Chinese.

 

[JohnTan]

mad hatter will eventually get his comeuppance if he hasn't already gotten it. The Ottomans out of the Muslim rulers are probably the worst. Of course I haven't delved into detail, but they had both the power and the will to do so. I don't think another Muslim empire before or after was as powerful or as cohesive. Btw, thanks for passing on that nugget of him being fond of Ottoman imperialism. I wasn't aware of that.

Dr Mahathir said reading was one of the activities he frequently did at home.

“I read a lot of books and obtain information from the books I have read, especially those concerning a leader.

“I read about the Russia Tsar, Peter the Great and how he successfully uplifted his people. I also read about South African leader Nelson Mandela. I also frequently read about Turkish leaders, how their Sultans conquered (Anatolia) lands previously owned by the Greeks, how disciplined they were in developing their country, their loyalties.

“These are some of the politics that we should understand so that if we choose to follow their methods, we will reap success,” he said.

Read more at https://www.todayonline.com/world/l...spends-time-during-malaysias-partial-lockdown

I guess it's a matter of opinion. I see the growth and decline of borders as you presented in that great video. Thanks for posting it up! Compared to the Japanese, China's borders did grow quite a lot, but I'm comparing them with other empires. Alexander's empire, Imperial Rome, mongol empire, British empire, the Spanish and the French empire as short as it was. All these other empires showed an incredible pace of land/territory conquest. For me, I can't think of another empire with such a slow and organic progression of land acquisition as China. That's why I call it marginal. Perhaps incremental would've been better.

That video started from the Spring Autumn era, giving the assumption that the chink kingdom started off as that size. In reality, the chinks began as a civilization pretty much like Rome, from small settlement along the a river, expanding in all directions until it became a sizeable kingdom of some sorts by the Shang Dynasty.

China's expansion could have been slower because they were faced with far stronger enemies than the more famous empires known in Europe or the Middle East.

The chinks, despite being the 'Middle Kingdom', were plagued by tartar invasions of tens of thousands of soldiers, far bigger than most armies the Middle East or Europe could master. Few records of such large armies exist in the West, other than the ancient Persians who supposedly sent 1 million soldiers to invade Greece under Xerxes.

The ancient chinks seem to be more on the defensive than offensive against their northen neighbours most of the time, pretty much like the europeans against the ottomans or saracens for most of their history.

 

[nightsafari]

Dr Mahathir said reading was one of the activities he frequently did at home.

“I read a lot of books and obtain information from the books I have read, especially those concerning a leader.

“I read about the Russia Tsar, Peter the Great and how he successfully uplifted his people. I also read about South African leader Nelson Mandela. I also frequently read about Turkish leaders, how their Sultans conquered (Anatolia) lands previously owned by the Greeks, how disciplined they were in developing their country, their loyalties.

“These are some of the politics that we should understand so that if we choose to follow their methods, we will reap success,” he said.

Read more at https://www.todayonline.com/world/l...spends-time-during-malaysias-partial-lockdown

thanks for the link.

That video started from the Spring Autumn era, giving the assumption that the chink kingdom started off as that size. In reality, the chinks began as a civilization pretty much like Rome, from small settlement along the a river, expanding in all directions until it became a sizeable kingdom of some sorts by the Shang Dynasty.

China's expansion could have been slower because they were faced with far stronger enemies than the more famous empires known in Europe or the Middle East.

The chinks, despite being the 'Middle Kingdom', were plagued by tartar invasions of tens of thousands of soldiers, far bigger than most armies the Middle East or Europe could master. Few records of such large armies exist in the West, other than the ancient Persians who supposedly sent 1 million soldiers to invade Greece under Xerxes.

The ancient chinks seem to be more on the defensive than offensive against their northen neighbours most of the time, pretty much like the europeans against the ottomans or saracens for most of their history.

hmm... that's the thing. they were defensive, not offensive. I believe it's a matter of perception and culture. Although I can't prove it, a hunch says that they simply did not desire anything to far away from their home base. Everything to the north was inhospitable tundra perhaps subarctic, to the west was desert and further south was dense jungle. I think everything else seemed undesirable. Militarily, they were pretty much untouchable in early history. Only in the 2nd millennium did you see the rise of strong external enemies, before that it was "internal" as in other warring states. The romans had a ton of tough enemies too, but they still carried on.

I mean c'mon, they didn't even bother claiming Taiwan for a long time!! And until the Mongols arrived, they were happy to leave Japan alone. Anyway, all above is merely my opinion and conjecture...

 

[JohnTan]

hmm... that's the thing. they were defensive, not offensive. I believe it's a matter of perception and culture. Although I can't prove it, a hunch says that they simply did not desire anything to far away from their home base. Everything to the north was inhospitable tundra perhaps subarctic, to the west was desert and further south was dense jungle. I think everything else seemed undesirable. Militarily, they were pretty much untouchable in early history. Only in the 2nd millennium did you see the rise of strong external enemies, before that it was "internal" as in other warring states. The romans had a ton of tough enemies too, but they still carried on.

I'm not too sure if everything north was undesirable. The fact that the huns, xiongnus and various tartar turkic tribes could field raiding armies in the tens of thousands point to a sizeable population. North America, with its more hospital weather, native american tribes certainly didn't field armies of similar sizes to fight against the good british or french amdk colonists.

The chinks faced strong enemies in the north since early. The Han dynasty during the 200 BC to 200 AD period often paid tribute to the Huns in return for peace. During the Jin dynasty in the 300 to 400 AD period, the huns invaded chinkland in a big way and forced millions of chinks to flee south, and that was when they started to colonize and integrate southern chinkland into their heartlands.

The sung dynasty during the 10th century to 13 century, the chinks often paid tribute to the northern liao and jurchen Jin dynasty.

So while on paper, the chink dynasty may have thought of themselves culturally and technologically superior, it did not mean they were winning on the battlefield. And their enemies were certainly numerous enough. Perhaps the harsh northern reaches that we know of today were likely far more hospitable centuries ago, since they could hold nomadic populations capable of fielding 100,000 troops. I don't think most european countries were able to field such a huge army until the 18th century.

I mean c'mon, they didn't even bother claiming Taiwan for a long time!! And until the Mongols arrived, they were happy to leave Japan alone. Anyway, all above is merely my opinion and conjecture

Most asian kingdoms didn't have a standing navy. The only one that had were the Ottomans, but their huge border along the Med made it practical. The Japs only had a decent navy in the 16th century, when they were fighting each other or invading Choseon Korea. The Ming navy during the early 1400 was an odd experiment that ended after 20 years or so. So, it wasn't surprising that the chinks failed to even colonise Taiwan.