• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

"Short the China Bubble" Trend Is Spreading

GoFlyKiteNow

Alfrescian
Loyal
"Short the China Bubble" Trend Is Spreading

By Xu Yisheng, Beijing

A China Bear trend, which got its start when Wall Street hedge fund manager and confirmed short seller James Chanos began dropping bubblish sentiments about the country, is spreading internationally.

Chanos has been saying since January that China's booming house market has become a bubble supported largely by speculative money. One of his assumptions is that China's urbanization has not come up to expectations. Although Chanos has also said that, "China is the engine of growth that will hopefully pull us out of the morass that we find ourselves in," he has stuck to his point that China's house market has been crazy, calling it a "classic pocket…of overheating and overindulgence."

Chanos, renowned for his correct calling of the Enron debacle and the tons of money he made on it through his Kynikos Associates, has long been regarded as the most astute short seller on Wall Street.

The China-skeptic voice has long been around. Predictions of the "Technical Bankruptcy of Chinese State-Owned Banks" struck up in 2002, when China commenced its banking sector reform. Since then, such voices have been heard over China's over-reliance on exports, the imbalance between investment and saving, its dependence on external energy resources, and a list of other issues.

Now the noise has found China's house market to focus on, along with the government's debt and the yuan exchange rate.

James Richards, once the general advisor for Long Term Capital Management, a massively busted hedge fund, said at a March 15 conference in Hong Kong that China is riding on the "biggest bubble" in history, which is just waiting to burst.

Richards, now the general manager of Omnis Inc., a market intelligence firm, holds that, except for short term speculation, China does not deserve any investment. He said the balance sheet of China's central bank, the People's Bank of China, looks very much like a fund long on the US dollar and shorting renminbi.

Richards has just joined the legion of China-shorters, which includes Harvard University economics professor and former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund Kenneth Rogoff, who warn that China is at the risk of economic catastrophe.

Rogoff said in January that China's growth rate could decline to 2% within the decade due to an "economic bubble caused by excessive lending."

Marc Faber, an independent analyst and one who reportedly predicted the Asian Financial Crisis, has been bullish on China's real estate market but warns of the possible bubble burst.

And the shorting voices extend far beyond the real estate sector. Victor Shih, a professor of Chinese Politics & Political Economy at Northwestern University, says in a report that between 2004 to 2009, the government debt from investment was 11 trillion yuan, (about US$1.6 trillion), double the estimation by official statistics of 5-6 trillion yuan, accounting for one third of China's GDP and about 70% of China's foreign exchange reserves. He estimated that total government debt may be as high as 96% of GDP. In a worst case scenario, Shih says a financial crisis may break out as soon as 2012.

Although many China analysts doubt the credibility of Shih's estimation, there are open ears on Wall Street.

On the other side of the hubbub is Jim O'Neill, Goldman Sachs chief economist, with new data on the RMB exchange rate. According to his March 3 report, GS's model, dubbed GSDEER (Goldman Sachs Dynamic Equilibrium Exchange Rate), shows that RMB had been undervalued but is now close to purchasing power parity. GS appears to be an outlier against the international chorus pushing the yuan's appreciation.

O'Neil makes his case in three ways: since 2005, the trade weighted, effective real exchange rate has risen by 20%, largely eliminating RMB's under valuation; China's imports are increasing and its trade surplus is shrinking; and RMB's purchase power at home has been undermined by inflation.

In another report, The Fair Value of BRIC's Currencies, GS says that the real, Brazil's currency, is one of the most over-valued currencies among the emerging economies, while the fair value of RMB has appreciated most since 2000 among the BRIC countries.

Attacking the soundness of China's economic sectors such as real estate is not the end of it. In late 2009, Pivot Capital Management, a hedge fund company registered in Monaco, doubted the fundamental health of the Chinese economy.

Its report, China's Investment Boom: The Great Leap into the Unknown, based on data from the 12-year investment cycle since 1998, analyzed the production capacity and demand in the infrastructure construction, manufacturing, and real estate sectors.

The report concludes that China's investment driven growth is inefficient and unsustainable, and predicted that the government-dominated lending and investment model will collapse in 2010.

The report also compares the ratio of general fixed capital formation (GFCF) to GDP, finding that in China it far overtook those of other Asian countries during the investment boom in mid 1990s. It says a ratio of GFCF to real GDP reveals that the effectiveness of China's lending-driven growth is quickly diminishing. Between 2000 and 2008, for every US$1 of growth, US$1.50 of lending was needed, and the ratio deteriorated to $1 to $7 in 2009. Loans pouring into real estate and stock speculation gave the real economy only a very limited boost.

It also states that the potential of urbanization to growth may be illusory. In China's Yangzi and Pearl River Deltas, and in the Bohai bay area, villages are virtually eliminated. According to the report, China's rate of urbanization has been underestimated by 20%, indicating that the population in the line of being urbanized is in fact about 100 million, instead of 350 million as long expected. So, it says, China is sliding towards a hard landing and sending as strong a shock wave through the world economy as the US subprime crisis.

Pivot Capital Management has earned some little reputation by monitoring possible troubles in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, the Baltic countries, Hungary, and Poland. It had made handsome profits by investing in government bonds and CDSs (credit default swaps) related to Greece, Portugal, and Iceland.

James Chanos says his shorting strategy for China would be to choose a copper mining company that exports 80% to China, digging out the companies liquidity and financial soundness, and "getting involved at the early stage," as most successful investors do.

In a financial market of 10,000 participants, a stock that is collectively believed about to surge soon would be bound to surge since the 10,000 speculators would all buy it. But the sun will never rise from the west even if 6 billion people on earth believe so. Who knows?

http://www.chinastakes.com/2010/3/short-the-china-bubble-trend-is-spreading.html
 

longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
When I first read your post I was wondering how are they going to short China's bubble. It is hard to even speculate with the Yuan given that it is not a freely traded currency (not to mention the sheer wall of reserves behind it).

Looks like strategy is to bet on the demise of countries that exports to China. Hmm seems like resource economies like Australia, Malaysia Palm oil, Middle East oil are the ones that will be hit. Why not short Wall Street because any supposed popping of the Chinese bubble might mean less purchase of US Treasuries and the ensuing rise in interest rate could KO the weak economy - short US commercial real estate perhaps.

Or you could short the budding 3rd world mfg economies like Vietnam, Bangladesh, Romania, Thailand, cambodia - after all a popping of Chinese bubble is likely to push economy into a slowdown which in turn means lower mfg cost.

Or why not just short Airbus/Boeing?

Lets hope there is no popping of bubble in China as it seems that it is Chinese consumption and $$$ that is currently holding up much of the world's economy. any slow down in china would cause the companies in all these countries to collapse thereby making them ideal for shorting!

Meanwhile Geithner is making trip to Beijing to discuss about Yuan (probably asking Chinese to continue buying US Treasuries). Seems like in the age where everyone's currency is weak due to high debt levels, the Chinese have this problem with Yuan being much stronger in actuality.

Hu is about to make trip to US and that is another meeting to the superpowers.
 

GoFlyKiteNow

Alfrescian
Loyal
When I first read your post I was wondering how are they going to short China's bubble. It is hard to even speculate with the Yuan given that it is not a freely traded currency (not to mention the sheer wall of reserves behind it).

When markets melt, trillion dollars will vanish in no time.
Wall street lost 2 trillion in market value during the melt down.
in just 2 days.

They are shorting commodities companies. that will have
chain reaction.
 

Sperminator

Alfrescian
Loyal
James Chanos says his shorting strategy for China would be to choose a copper mining company that exports 80% to China, digging out the companies liquidity and financial soundness, and "getting involved at the early stage," as most successful investors do.

I can't resist but quote on the BLUE fonts GoFlyKiteNow have highlighted.

Now it has finally reveal to me that the HOW to pop China's Bubble is out...

You see, during March, Chile was hit by Earthquake, which I really doubt that it's natural (HAARP exist). There was aftershock. And it's the Aftershock that actually cripple the Mining Operations of Chile, sending the prices of Copper skyhigh.

http://www.metalprices.com/FreeSite/metals/cu/cu.asp

With Copper pricing going up sky high, alternative metals like Aluminium follow suit. It creates a chain of event on metals' pricing.

Knowing that China is the largest consumer of RAW materials, this will invariably force China's cost of raw materials to be higher.

In a compounding action of the economy, the pricing for exports would be forced to go up higher automatically.

I believe that there are some covert plans to purposely let China go burst.

As right now, China is not budging on increasing it's RMB value against USD.

US is just finding a scapegoat to point to, while they are thinking of how to fix their economical mess created since 1973. During that time, President Nixon declared that USD is no longer pegged with GOLD, and that gave the Federal Bank incessant rights to print Fiat Money.

St_Louis_Adjusted_Monetary_Base_Chart.jpg


Take a look at the USD inflation chart.

In my own humble opinion, bursting the China Bubble do not help anyone at all.

China must remain strong economically, and just this week, Hu Jintao have initiated an Entire China (all Provincial Government Meeting) through Video Conferencing, rallying for CHINA to be united, and be INNOVATIVE in their technological advancement.

After annoucing this, there was a news telecast stating this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianhe-I

China have developed a SUPER COMPUTER, Tianhe - 1, or 天河一号

These are all very clear political signals sent to US that they will not adhere to US's pressures in increasing their RMB value against DOLLAR, as this would be suicidal to their export driven economy. Just a mere 5% increase in the RMB will cause millions of jobs to be lost... I don't see any way China will agree to the RMB value appreciation against the Greenback (Fiat Dollars):cool:
 

Sperminator

Alfrescian
Loyal
Take a look at the HURUN wealth report.

China's very own FORBES report.

http://www.hurun.net/listreleaseen451.aspx



2010 Hurun Wealth Report

* There are 875,000 millionaires in China, a rise of 6.1% on last year.



* Beijing is home to more of China’s rich than anywhere else, with 151,000 millionaires. Guangdong occupies second position, and Shanghai is third.



* Hainan is the domestic luxury destination of choice for China’s wealthy, where they can indulge in their preferred hobbies of swimming and golf.


Please note that when they define millionaires, they measure by EURO 1 MILLION networth, or roughly RMB 10 Million.


So, you see, no matter what, there will be means and ways for CHINA to recover, even if the bubble goes bust, China will quickly recover.

Please note that by focusing on China's market itself, it can be SELF SUSTAINING, as it has a MARKET SIZE of 1.3 Billion people!

:cool:
 

manokie

Alfrescian
Loyal
When I first read your post I was wondering how are they going to short China's bubble. It is hard to even speculate with the Yuan given that it is not a freely traded currency (not to mention the sheer wall of reserves behind it).

Looks like strategy is to bet on the demise of countries that exports to China. Hmm seems like resource economies like Australia, Malaysia Palm oil, Middle East oil are the ones that will be hit. Why not short Wall Street because any supposed popping of the Chinese bubble might mean less purchase of US Treasuries and the ensuing rise in interest rate could KO the weak economy - short US commercial real estate perhaps.

Or you could short the budding 3rd world mfg economies like Vietnam, Bangladesh, Romania, Thailand, cambodia - after all a popping of Chinese bubble is likely to push economy into a slowdown which in turn means lower mfg cost.

Or why not just short Airbus/Boeing?

Lets hope there is no popping of bubble in China as it seems that it is Chinese consumption and $$$ that is currently holding up much of the world's economy. any slow down in china would cause the companies in all these countries to collapse thereby making them ideal for shorting!

Meanwhile Geithner is making trip to Beijing to discuss about Yuan (probably asking Chinese to continue buying US Treasuries). Seems like in the age where everyone's currency is weak due to high debt levels, the Chinese have this problem with Yuan being much stronger in actuality.

Hu is about to make trip to US and that is another meeting to the superpowers.

it is funny u think that china is a superpower
what does china have to be a superpower?

also do u really think US cares if china has US treasuries? japan had tonnes of US treasures before it went into a huge depression.
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
also do u really think US cares if china has US treasuries?

of course US cares if china has US treasuries, else US won't be pressing China to increase the value of rmb...
the two matters are interlinked one way or the other... :biggrin:
 

GoFlyKiteNow

Alfrescian
Loyal
of course US cares if china has US treasuries, else US won't be pressing China to increase the value of rmb...
the two matters are interlinked one way or the other... :biggrin:

Yes they are interlinked. All currencies of the world are interlinked
to the USD and via the US dollar because 98% of world trade
are conducted via the USD.

Yes USD. Not Remimbi or Yen or Euro.

The US is pressurizing the revaluation of the remimbi because
ot does not want to carry the burden of being the world
reserve currency at it expense - its economy.

In case of China, it is not China that decides the value of its
reserves. It is the USA.

Same with other countries.
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
Yes they are interlinked. All currencies of the world are interlinked
to the USD and via the US dollar because 98% of world trade
are conducted via the USD.

Yes USD. Not Remimbi or Yen or Euro.

The US is pressurizing the revaluation of the remimbi because
ot does not want to carry the burden of being the world
reserve currency at it expense - its economy.

In case of China, it is not China that decides the value of its
reserves. It is the USA.

Same with other countries.

if you go through your many posts since time immemorial, you will find that you always go back to the same thing ie this currency vs that currency

but that wasn't the point I was telling, i said "two matters" not "two currencies"....
 

GoFlyKiteNow

Alfrescian
Loyal
if you go through your many posts since time immemorial, you will find that you always go back to the same thing ie this currency vs that currency

but that wasn't the point I was telling, i said "two matters" not "two currencies"....

The two matters are two sides of the same coin - as far as the US dollar is concerned. Because it is a global reserve currency.
 

borom

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Hedge fund manager Mark Hart bets on China as the next 'enormous credit bubble' to burst
Mark Hart, an American hedge fund manager who has made millions predicting the crises in US sub-prime market and European debt, has launched a fund to bet on the imminent implosion of China.
29 Nov 2010
Comments
Mr Hart, who runs Corriente Advisors from Fort Worth Texas, has told potential investors in a presentation that China is in the "late stages of an enormous credit bubble".

When this bursts, the financier said he expects an "economic fall-out" that will be as "extraordinary as China's economic out-performance over the last decade".

Asking for a minimum $1m (£640,000) stake, Corriente said it will use sovereign and corporate credit default swaps, interest rate and foreign exchange options to cash-in on the collapse.

In the presentation, which amounts to a devastating attack on the prevailing belief that China is an engine for growth, the financier argues that "inappropriately low interest rates and an artificially suppressed exchange rate" have created dangerous bubbles in sectors including:

Raw materials: Corriente says China has consumed just 65pc of the cement it has produced in the past five years, after exports. The country is currently outputting more steel than the next seven largest producers combined – it now has 200m tons of excess capacity, more that the EU and Japan's total production so far this year.

Property construction: Corriente reckons there is currently an excess of 3.3bn square meters of floor space in the country – yet 200m square metres of new space is being constructed each year.

Property prices: The average price-to-rent ratio of China's eight key cities is 39.4 times – this figure was 22.8 times in America just before its housing crisis. Corriente argues: "Lacking alternative investment options, Chinese corporates, households and government entities have invested excess liquidity in the property markets, driving home prices to unsustainable levels." The result is that the property is out of reach for the majority of ordinary Chinese.

Banking: As with the credit crisis in the West, the banks' exposure to the infrastructure credit bubbles isn't obvious because the debt is held in Local Investment Companies – shell entities which borrow from Chinese banks and invest in fixed assets.

Mr Hart reckons that "bad loans will equal 98pc of total bank equity if LIC owned, non-cashflow producing assets are recognised as non-performing.

As a final blow, Mr Hart says that the market belief that the Chinese government has "ample resources" to bail out its banks is flawed.

Corriente's analysis of the ratio of China government debt to GDP comes out at 107pc – five times higher than official published numbers. The hedge fund says this number uses "conservative assumptions" and the real figure could be as high as 200pc.

The result is that, rather than being the "key engine for global growth", China is an "enormous tail-risk."

He is so convinced by his arguments that he has warned investors that the fund, called the China Opportunity Master Fund, is prepared to "burn" 20pc of their cash each year until his theories are proved

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...the-next-enormous-credit-bubble-to-burst.html

Anyone knows how much GIC/Temasek has invested in PRC ?
After having lost billions of public funds in failed financial institutions in the West ,kindergardens in Australia, et2 will history repeat itself?
 

neddy

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
"Short the China Bubble" Trend Is Spreading

By Xu Yisheng, Beijing

A China Bear trend, which got its start when Wall Street hedge fund manager and confirmed short seller James Chanos began dropping bubblish sentiments about the country, is spreading internationally.

http://www.chinastakes.com/2010/3/short-the-china-bubble-trend-is-spreading.html

I know manufacturing in China is going going gone!
One even open new textile factory in Sarajevo in former Yugoslavia.
 

borom

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Business Times - 02 Dec 2010

HONG KONG/NEW YORK
Singapore's GIC and OCBC's insurance arm have joined a group led by US private equity firms KKR and TPG Capital in buying Morgan Stanley's 34.3 per cent stake in top Chinese investment bank CICC.

Late on Wednesday, Reuters Breakingviews reported that Government of Singapore Investment Corp (GIC), Singapore's sovereign wealth fund, had joined the bid by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co (KKR) and TPG for Morgan Stanley's stake.
Separately, a source familiar with the matter told Reuters that Great Eastern Holdings Ltd, the insurance company controlled by Oversea-Chinese Banking Corp (OCBC), had also joined the group.
The long-awaited deal was expected to be announced before the end of the year, the source said, adding that most regulatory approvals had been obtained and only some minor ones were pending.
Morgan Stanley is expected to get more than US$1 billion for the stake, which it received for just US$37 million when the venture was founded more than a decade ago. It was not clear how the stake will be divided between the four partners.
The source declined to be identified as the deal was not public yet. Morgan Stanley was not available for an immediate comment. GIC and Great Eastern were also not available for comment.
Morgan Stanley has been trying to sell its stake in China International Capital Corp (CICC) for several years, and indicated as early as 2007 its intent to form a new investment banking joint venture with China Fortune Securities.
However, since China's securities rules forbid foreign companies from having more than one joint venture at a time in the country, it had to put those plans on hold pending the sale of its CICC stake.
China's securities regulator has since started vetting Morgan Stanley's application for its new venture with China Fortune, after the CICC stake sale was approved, the 21st Century Business Herald reported on Thursday, citing unidentified sources. – REUTERS

http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/sub/storyprintfriendly/0,4582,415847,00.html?

Nothing new or suprising about GIC-but am suprised by Great Eastern's decision.

Wonder those who paid $10.120 for OCBC shares knew about this?
 

trojan18

Alfrescian
Loyal
What happens if China decides to dump all or 1/2 of the estimated 1 trillion USD treasury into the market....
 
Top