R.I.P. Lim Hock Siew

[kukubird58]

hahaha....i am being harsh....
but i would like to put things in perspective.....
many pple stood for their principles....some died for their principles....
compared to them...lhs did not seem to be dealt a very bad hand.

 

[Nice-Gook]

This is a lame analogy.

Did the PRC Ferrari driver ask the taxi driver to get out of the way before he sped across the junction? NO.he taxi driver was not offered any choice. Now do you understand the difference?

And what if the taxi driver refuses to move aside for the PRC just because he is driving a Ferrari?......to rot in a jail for 20yrs?

Sorry,I overstimulated your depth.Because the analogy clearly illustrates what democracy is all about.It's about each man and woman being treated equal.It doesn't matter if you are a political thug or thug in the road--you are not above the law.

Almost all the political detainees were offered the chance to be released on the condition that they denounce their politics and stay out of politics after their release. Most of them chose not to accept the conditions for their release.


I do not understand why all these political detainees chose to remain in detention. It is not as if there were many people in Singapore dying of starvation or being tortured or discriminated, etc. Do they think they are Nelson Mandela or what?

Let Dr.Lim answer you.

''Dr Lim Hock Siew: I am not interested in saving Lee Kuan Yew’s face. This is not a question of pride but of principle. My detention is completely unjustifiable and I will not lift a single finger to help Lee Kuan Yew to justify the unjustifiable. In the light of what you say, is it not very clear that I have lost my freedom all these long and bitter years just to save Lee Kuan Yew’s face? Therefore the PAP regime’s allegation that I am a security risk is a sham cover and a facade to detain me unjustifiably for over nine years.''

 

[Nice-Gook]

hahaha....i am being harsh....
but i would like to put things in perspective.....
many pple stood for their principles....some died for their principles....
compared to them...lhs did not seem to be dealt a very bad hand.

It's not a question of principal per se.

It's the very question of your existence.

Do you exist at the whims and fancies of the mighty who can manipulate your life suka suka?

If the detainees had not stood their grounds and accepted LKY terms for their release than LKY will crow all around the world that he did right and saved us.....and if that's how our existence works than the whole concept of humanity is defeated.That is we have to confess though when we are right in order to save the one who yields the sword ?.....than that is the order of the jungle.

We should thank these detainees who stood their ground for the little bit of democracy we have now.Otherwise our lives would have been entirely different.

 

[maozedong]

You made a stupid analogy and now you are trying to cover up your mistake by talking about democracy and equality. Did I say that there was true democracy or true equality or rule of the law here? NO, i never said that. (Even in the West, there is no true democracy or equality) That was never my point. My point is - what didn't Dr Lim give in? Not to give face to LKY? Not to "help LKY justify the unjustifable"?

Anybody who is fair minded would agree that Dr Lim was wrongly detained. But in politics everywhere (even in the West), it is never about right or wrong. Politics is always about self-interest - and both Dr Lim and LKY were politicians. Sure, Dr Lim was selflessly dedicated to his cause. But can anybody be sure that he wouldn't end up like Mao Zhedong who went from a patriotic revolutionary to a brutal dictator? And there was no need for Dr Lim to worry about "helping LKY justify the unjustifiable" if he chose to be released early - because everybody who is fair-minded knows it is unjustifiable.

The point here is - Dr Lim himself chose to be detained for so long. For what? For his principles? Did Singaporeans of his era care about the principles he fought for? NO! They cared more about bread and butter - and that, LKY delivered. LKY may be cruel but he isn't totally unreasonable. He did give Dr Lim a chance. Dr Lim was a good man, but he wasted his life.

And what if the taxi driver refuses to move aside for the PRC just because he is driving a Ferrari?......to rot in a jail for 20yrs?

Sorry,I overstimulated your depth.Because the analogy clearly illustrates what democracy is all about.It's about each man and woman being treated equal.It doesn't matter if you are a political thug or thug in the road--you are not above the law.




Let Dr.Lim answer you.

''Dr Lim Hock Siew: I am not interested in saving Lee Kuan Yew’s face. This is not a question of pride but of principle. My detention is completely unjustifiable and I will not lift a single finger to help Lee Kuan Yew to justify the unjustifiable. In the light of what you say, is it not very clear that I have lost my freedom all these long and bitter years just to save Lee Kuan Yew’s face? Therefore the PAP regime’s allegation that I am a security risk is a sham cover and a facade to detain me unjustifiably for over nine years.''

 

[Kinana]

hahaha....the concept of marxism/communism/whatever name is dead in the modern world......
look at the few countries (north korea, cuba; etc..) left and you can form your own conclusion....
lky was ahead of his time to see this.....and took the actions required.......of course u can debate till the cows cum home whether they are justified.

as to lhs...why he needs somebody to write/finish his stories after his death when he refused to do so when he was alive?????

LKY is the wise old man tt saved us Sinkies from communist. We ought to be grateful forevr

 

[scroobal]

Its is not cut and dry as you think. Hock Siew, Poh Soo Kai and Old man was not just about ideals and ideology. We are talkimg about betrayal of a personal nature. Hock Siew and Soo Kai were licking stamps and preparing campaign materials in the basement of a particular Oxley home while the wife fueled them with beverages and snacks. This is about who was actually behind the Hock Lee Bus Riots and the ongoing Omertà? This what ChaoPP is alluding to.

Woodhull, Soo Kai, Hock Siew, Jamit were personally brought into the fray by old man from University of Singapore. There were no emmisaries or go betweens. The first and the last were banished but the Malaysian Govt did not incarcerate them for rest of their meaningful life like they did the middle 2.

In 2003, I sort of knew Hock Siew will not write his book and in 2007 when son entered NUS, the die was cast. It has been a well worn pattern. Janadas Devan was not kept by SPH to mow the lawns neither was he there to improve our language skils. As of last year, he has gone to NUS. The rest of the family have no clue. devan must have raised the eldest with much more and the old man knew. The 2 daughters of the head of CPM Singapore is with SPH. The daughter of no 2 is with an NUS Institute

The point that I am making is that this not about a man who could not do his sums and therefore perished in prison. Hardcore Communists of Chinese ed background signed the confessionals and came out real quick. They had no personal links to old man.

Let me tell you how badly informed this country is. If you ask 100 people which Govt was in place when the Hock Lee riots occurred. 98 of them will say PAP. Because the MSM and Ministry of Education has painted the picture that PAP was fighting the communists. That only took place after British and Tungku cleared the mess and that was not even a battle. It was merely holding them in prison.

The point here is - Dr Lim himself chose to be detained for so long. For what? For his principles? Did Singaporeans of his era care about the principles he fought for? NO! They cared more about bread and butter - and that, LKY delivered. LKY may be cruel but he isn't totally unreasonable. He did give Dr Lim a chance. Dr Lim was a good man, but he wasted his life.

 

[Cruxx]

But in politics everywhere (even in the West), it is never about right or wrong. Politics is always about self-interest - and both Dr Lim and LKY were politicians. Sure, Dr Lim was selflessly dedicated to his cause. But can anybody be sure that he wouldn't end up like Mao Zhedong who went from a patriotic revolutionary to a brutal dictator?

I notice that Sinkies have a penchant for straw man arguments. Why ah?

 

[Kinana]

The leaders of Barisan Socialis were commies. How else could they had countered good sense and opposed the merger with Malaysia?
I find it difficult to believe that as a founding member, LHS wasn't one.

I'm so glad Lee destroyed communists in Singapore.

 

[Nice-Gook]

You made a stupid analogy and now you are trying to cover up your mistake by talking about democracy and equality.

I am not gonna argue with you,who can pee further,but Dr Lim's detention without a trial is indeed about the very essence of democracy.......that i his democratic right to be innocent till proven guilty denied.

My point is - what didn't Dr Lim give in? Not to give face to LKY? Not to "help LKY justify the unjustifable"?

Don't you understand English ?Didn't Dr.Lim replied and explained that?

In simple terms it's called duress in law.Like a cop whacking you out of shape to admit to the crime--you never commit.Sure,LKY promised freedom thereafter.But you are guilty nevertheless.And you carry that guilt framed on to you by LKY-- right to your grave.

Anybody who is fair minded would agree that Dr Lim was wrongly detained. But in politics everywhere (even in the West), it is never about right or wrong. Politics is always about self-interest - and both Dr Lim and LKY were politicians. Sure, Dr Lim was selflessly dedicated to his cause. But can anybody be sure that he wouldn't end up like Mao Zhedong who went from a patriotic revolutionary to a brutal dictator? And there was no need for Dr Lim to worry about "helping LKY justify the unjustifiable" if he chose to be released early - because everybody who is fair-minded knows it is unjustifiable.

Sure,politicians are scums.But it doesn't mean that we have to accept that.The democratic process of elections every 4 to 5 yeras ensure that.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.That is why there are check and balances in a democracy.Under a democracy Mao would have seen his terms ended and cut short.Which precisely what happened to Churchill,however a war hero he may be.The five pillars of a democratic regime such as the free press,free executive powers,free judiciary and free institutions would ensure that Mao and LKY would not rule long enough to be a tyrant.

You come across as person without an iota of how democracy works.Since it is the very curtailment of democracy and the human rights that follows that abled LKY to get away with jailing Dr.Lim for so long without a trial..

The point here is - Dr Lim himself chose to be detained for so long. For what? For his principles? Did Singaporeans of his era care about the principles he fought for? NO! They cared more about bread and butter - and that, LKY delivered. LKY may be cruel but he isn't totally unreasonable. He did give Dr Lim a chance. Dr Lim was a good man, but he wasted his life.

Dr.Lim chose to be detained so long by himself ,you say?Gosh!..the right words wouldl be LKY imprisoned him for so long because he refuse to crawl to LKY tantrums .

And you argument is why not crawl and bootlick LKY' since no one is appreciating his sacrifice?Many great men did not seek self gratifications and contributed to mankind quietly by sacrificing themselves.Just like soldiers who lay their lives against all odds.But those act had inspires others and saves future generations.


And if you are happy with LKY because LKY delivered,so be it.But lot of us feel his delivery was written in our blood and sweat.And that he delivered to himself and his family more.

It was because of the existence of propel like Dr Lim that opened our eyes.Otherwise we may never know what a scumbag PAP is.

 

[Kinana]

Democracy does not in any way include innocence until proven guilty.

Don't you understand English ?Didn't Dr.Lim replied and explained that?

In simple terms it's called duress in law.Like a cop whacking you out of shape to admit to the crime--you never commit.Sure,LKY promised freedom thereafter.But you are guilty nevertheless.And you carry that guilt framed on by LKY right to your grave.

And rightly so, they were commies.

Sure,politicians are scums.But it doesn't mean that we have to accept that.The democratic process of elections every 4 to 5 yeras ensure that.

Since you say politicians are scums, what difference will that make whoever you vote for?

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.That is why there are check and balances in a democracy.Under a democracy Mao would have been his terms ended and cut short.Which precisely what happened to Churchill,however a war hero he may be.The five pillars of a democratic regime such as the free press,free executive powers,free judiciary and free institutions would ensure that Mao and LKY would not rule long enough to be a tyrant.

Had the commies taken over, there will be none of those.

Dr.Lim chose to be detained so long by himself ,you say?Gosh!..the right words wouldl be LKY imprisoned him for so long because he refuse to crawl to LKY tantrums .

Thats why its correct to say he was a fool.

 

[Nice-Gook]

I notice that Sinkies have a penchant for straw man arguments. Why ah?

What you fail to understand is that noble man do exist and the faith that such man enters politics is the very basis of endowing so much power unto them.Take USA as an example....1 man is chosen as their president.That system came to be because of people like George Washington existed.

George Washington and his hero Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus-the Roman dictator---- who gained fame for their selfless devotion to the republic in times of crisis and for giving up the reins of power when the crisis was over.

They were granted absolute dictatorial powers.And yet they did not abuse it,even to save the life of Cincinnatus 's own son .

After accomplishing what they were set to do they then resigned and returned to their farm,as farmers.

In today's US politics scums as Bush do exist but there is always hope that another Abraham Lincoln would arise.That is what democracy is all about.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

got to take issue wif u one this one...u hv no idea wat dr beatrice chen n her son went thru for those 22 yrs...yr tang liang hong analogy is totally apple n oranges, flawed misconceived n erroneous...fyi dr beatrice chen was practising as a renal specialist at specialist centre(in orchard road before the building was pulled down) for many yrs, even fm the time when specialist centre was prolly singapore's equivalent to london's harley street...this was even before mount elizabeth became famous...also dr beatrice chen comes from quite a wealthy family in her own right...tat explains how she kept the family going n sent her son to cambridge...

as for dr lim hock siew...i doubt he wld say tat he is a saint r a man wifout flaws r faults...also politics is a v dirty dark business...prolly much more so during those heady tumultous days in the 50s-60s...be tat as it may...i for one hope history shall be kinder to him in death than it has been to him in life...

20 odd years detained and yet said nothing of significance after he was released? What did he have to hide? It's more than obvious that he didn't want to say anything. What a bloody loser! But he wasn't such a loser.

What the old man did to Tang's wife and family members should be clear to all that LHSs wife had it easy. LHS was not innocent is all his deeds. A more honest man would have told all his sins and all his glory because no man is a saint but yet this bastard pretended to his death that he was a saint!

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

if i am not mistaken chee's wife comes from quite a well to do family in taiwan...

Let me tell you the reality of family's life in politics.If you are in politics and bringing in fame and fortunes you family would celebrate you.But if politicking alone brings them misfortunes and poverty;many including your own wify and children would want to distance themselves.In fact,many do.The very reason why I admire the Chee family.


.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

yeah n wat happened 2 yrs after merger??...in effect merger only looked gd in theory n on paper...

but i shall give u this much u pap cadre grass roots stooge...i am happy tat harry, raja, goh, toh n gang came up trumps becuz the alternative wld prolly hv been a disaster for s'pore...however wat i am not happy over is wat has happened to s'pore over the last 30 odd yrs...the s'pore now n the s'pore then is totally different...everything now is just money money money...n harry is to blame...

The leaders of Barisan Socialis were commies. How else could they had countered good sense and opposed the merger with Malaysia?
I find it difficult to believe that as a founding member, LHS wasn't one.

I'm so glad Lee destroyed communists in Singapore.

 

[kukubird58]

It's not a question of principal per se.

It's the very question of your existence.

Do you exist at the whims and fancies of the mighty who can manipulate your life suka suka?

If the detainees had not stood their grounds and accepted LKY terms for their release than LKY will crow all around the world that he did right and saved us.....and if that's how our existence works than the whole concept of humanity is defeated.That is we have to confess though when we are right in order to save the one who yields the sword ?.....than that is the order of the jungle.

We should thank these detainees who stood their ground for the little bit of democracy we have now.Otherwise our lives would have been entirely different.

hahaha....bro, u have over-exaggerated..
whther lhs was detained for 1 day or 1 yr or 10 yrs or 30yrs would not have any difference to where singapore is today.....
this is the hard truth.....
i am not here to judge whether lhs/lky is villian or hero.....the point is that per se...the price lhs paid viz-viz many others is not so bad...
i can tell you many young men (around that time) went across the causeway to hide and simply vanished......
nobody knew whether they were dead or alive......these are the unsung heroes.
lastly we can agree to disagree and leave it as it is.

 

[Nice-Gook]

if i am not mistaken chee's wife comes from quite a well to do family in taiwan...

Maybe or maybe not.The point being does it counts?In fact it makes matter all the worst for the Chees.Imaging living in a 3rm flat with 3 kids at the glare of the public and in school.No wify in her right mind would want that.And to seek financial help from father-in-law is really rubbing salt on Chee's wounded pride.No man wants to live the life of a kept man.

The gist is LKY had interfered in ISD detainees family lives.I guess,it must be a far worse pain to bear than being behind bars.Imagine a family suddenly without the bread winner,lost financially and emotionally---because LKY detained him for their political rivalry.Than comes LKY's outfits giving handouts to such families.Some family may refuse initially but it's just a question of time before they succumb.And at midst of this is the very detainees--torn between having their families accepting 'help' from the very devil who incarnated them.But unable to persuade their families not to since they they themselves cannot feed them.

This is the trauma LKY must have had placed heavy on many people he detained without a trial.Had any of us were in that position,we would have wished for death as a relief.Damn if you do and damn if you don't kind of situation.And in between your family and children's future at stake.

Hence LKY than would have effectively shifted the focus to jailing the entire family.The detainees in jail while their families beholden to the very evil regime for their daily bread and butter.

This is something many Sinkies fail to see.

The emotions that drains the detainees to see their very family torn apart.Worse,if their very family starts believing that it's their fathers who are at faults while the LKY regime is the benevolent.

 

[Conqueror]

Sure Or Not ?

The leaders of Barisan Socialis were commies. How else could they had countered good sense and opposed the merger with Malaysia?

I'm so glad Lee destroyed communists in Singapore.

[video=youtube;8kqMZhwwMtI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kqMZhwwMtI&feature=related[/video]


PAP logo is worse than a commie - a fascist logo.

 

[Conqueror]

Betrayed ?

[video=youtube;gCGLaiKFaX8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCGLaiKFaX8&feature=related[/video]


Has anyone actually suspected Lee was a Han traitor working for the Japs ?

 

[kingrant]

I have been following the to and fro with some interest. What piqued me is that you are being most naive when you hold this view. What is asked for is not a promise to stay out of politics and out of LKY's way. There was something extra - and that was they had to sign on oath to give up being a Communist. This is day and night to what you said.

If you had been arrested based on false trumped up charges, would you accept? If you had not been a Communist, and there was no evidence that you are, why should you admit that you were? Because if you did, you would be tightening the noose around yr neck, and LKY can then say that indeed you had been detained because you are a Communist, when that is what he couldnt prove! On principle, then, you would not admit to anything you are not, and give cause for yr enemies to do you in.

Because he stood his ground, he was further detained. And LKY was one person who wanted to break you down or rub you into the ground. I am sure you would have read or seen the complete video of his side of his story. If you had already come to the foregone conclusion that he was a communist and you are sure of it becos you had seen classified evdiences that nobody else had seen so far, then we wouldnt be having this discussion.

Almost all the political detainees were offered the chance to be released on the condition that they denounce their politics and stay out of politics after their release. Most of them chose not to accept the conditions for their release.


I do not understand why all these political detainees chose to remain in detention. It is not as if there were many people in Singapore dying of starvation or being tortured or discriminated, etc. Do they think they are Nelson Mandela or what?

 

[kingrant]

This guy is a troll. If I were you, I would ignore him.

yeah n wat happened 2 yrs after merger??...in effect merger only looked gd in theory n on paper...

but i shall give u this much u pap cadre grass roots stooge...i am happy tat harry, raja, goh, toh n gang came up trumps becuz the alternative wld prolly hv been a disaster for s'pore...however wat i am not happy over is wat has happened to s'pore over the last 30 odd yrs...the s'pore now n the s'pore then is totally different...everything now is just money money money...n harry is to blame...