Pre Trial Conference

[sharin75]

Q2a - Any 2 sentences will be consecutive. The 3rd will be concurrent. Which ones consecutive is up to the judge.

Q2b - If Prosecution proceeds 2-4, mosy likely 2 sentences concurrent.

As for fines, just have to total up for all the charges proceeded with. There is no consecutive or concurrent for fines. There is also no concurrent for jail term in default of fine (cannot pay fine, go to jail). Have to total up. There is also no remission (early release for good behaviour)

Thank you busdriver for helping me understanding this.

Just want to confirm:
Q2a - Any 2 sentences will be consecutive - possible remission (early release for good behaviour)

Q2b - If Prosecution proceeds 2-4, mosy likely 2 sentences concurrent - definitely no remission.

So concurrent sentence no remission but consecutive sentence may possible get remission. My understanding correct?

1.Any indication to calculate remission duration?


2.If the consecutive sentence is sufficiently long, can my bro do some self study to upgrade his education rather than wasting time? Limited courses or he can do any course he has in mind? I supposed the government don't pay for inmates right?

I can't find any of these details online.


I may be worrying too much. My bro may not even reach that stage.

But if he is, I am going make double sure he upgrade himself and make sure he can repay every single penny I fork out now.

 

[busdriver111]

The defence lawyer can apply, but all he's gonna get is the cautioned (short) statement. The prosecution never gives away the long statement recorded under section 121. And during trial, the long statement is always the one that trips up the accused person when he takes the witness stand. Once there is any discrepancy between the long statement and his oral testimony in court, especially during cross, prosecution will seek to impeach credibility.

Once the statements are taken and the investigations complete, the prosecution WILL say you are charged under section # Cap. #, see you in court, pal. What else is there to say? All the details required to make out the offence are written in the charge itself. And the cautioned statement will be provided.

It is only at PTC stage, when trial dates are sought, that prosecution has to reveal who their witnesses are.

The gist of the prosecution's case is often contained in the long statement. Which is why for donkey years, defence lawyers have complained about prosecution not furnishing it. And that is also why amendments have been proposed to to be made to the CPC, and a pilot project started on trying out a discovery process for criminal proceedings.

Evidence is inadmissible not because of "surprises in court". There is really nothing in the books to prevent criminal trials from becoming trials by ambush, whether for the prosecution or the defence. Especially so because evidence in chief is still given in viva voce, unlike civil trials where evidence in cheif is given in affidavit.

Evidence becomes inadmissible when it flouts some rule of evidence. Eg. hearsay evidence, or where a statement taken under section 122 CPC is not done by an officer ranked sergeant or above, or was taken under threat, inducement or promise.

 

[busdriver111]

Maybe this example will help.

Mr X is charged and convicted of charges A, B and C. Sentences imposed =
Charge A - 3 months, Charge B - 4 mths, Charge C - 6 mths.
Most likely, Charge C (6) and Charge A (3) consecutive, charge B concurrent.
6+3 = 9 months. Total sentence 9 months. After one-third remission, he is released after 2/3X9 = 6 months. (Note : There is no remission for sentences less than 1 month)

Oh yes, to complicate things, for certain types of offences, there is also the possibility of tagging. ie. he gets to go home and serve his sentence under curfew. There will be an electronic tag on his ankle. He must have served at least one month before he can apply for tagging.

Self-study, I think no one will stop your brother from studying during his free time in prison. Only question is the books and other materials that he may need. Seriously, if he has the desire to "upgrade" himself, he will try all means to do so. If he has not, it makes no difference whether he is behind bars or not. How old is he?

 

[sharin75]

...One of the primary function of the lawyer is to apply for all evidence discovered in order to advise and represent his client's in his best interest.

Bro Ramseth,

Logically, I think any defence lawyer will only apply for all evidence if the accused decides to claim trial.

Otherwise, I think the lawyer will only try to extract as much information as possible from my bro. I think costs and time are the main issues here.

I would think if the lawyer feels we could raise good material and significant doubts just by representation, then by all means he just do representation. Then close case. Settle minimum costs.

I may be wrong, but I dont think the DPP would release any material evidence, unless DPP receives clear indication the case goes to trial.

But I will also ask the lawyer next week, whether it is possible to apply now.

I still feel that, for our limited budget, the lawyer does not have any incentive to go all the way. My bro didnt even sign any "warrant to act" nor place any deposit. Professional ethics?

We are living in Singapore...money is king ma...my assumption.

Sorry if I offend any "ethical" lawyer reading this, it is just my assumption. Please forgive me.

 

[Ramseth]

If it's already at PTC stage, your brother is already claiming trial, unless he wants to abort his stand and plead guilty as charged.

 

[sharin75]

If it's already at PTC stage, your brother is already claiming trial, unless he wants to abort his stand and plead guilty as charged.

Bro Ramseth,

I think you are wrong. Both brothers Scroobal and Busdriver did say we could still proceed with representation first.

If fail then can choose to plead guilty or go trial.

Or did I miss anything?

 

[busdriver111]

Sharin,

Ramseth is correct. When you reach PTC stage, technically, the position is that defendant is claiming trial. PTC = a conference before trial.

Of course, reps can be made and the defendant can "take a certain course" (ie PG) during PTC. If he chooses this route, PTC judge will fix a mention date in another court for him to PG.

 

[sharin75]

Sharin,

Ramseth is correct. When you reach PTC stage, technically, the position is that defendant is claiming trial. PTC = a conference before trial.

Of course, reps can be made and the defendant can "take a certain course" (ie PG) during PTC. If he chooses this route, PTC judge will fix a mention date in another court for him to PG.

Bro busdriver, now I am confused. Is there anything to do with the below?

- Plead not guilty means go to trial as charged.

- No plea taken means trying to get the prosecutor to amend (i.e. lower) charge or trying to contest technicalities like investigation and interrogation procedures, validity of evidence etc.

Since there is PTC now, my bro is considered claiming trial. Then making representation to raise some material and significant doubt means he's challenging the charges...and hence considered as no plea?

Then if representation fails, and my bro still can choose the PG. Then the sentence would be stiffer than the straight forward PG without going PTC.

Is this thinking correct?

 

[busdriver111]

Just speak to your brother's lawyer about making the representations.

Don't worry about the rest of the details. They don't affect your brother.

 

[scroobal]

That is the reason why it is important to get the right spin on the first go. If however you (i) does not work , I will still go for (ii). For (ii) cover these 2 points in detail
- out of character - your brother did this out of character and it is an aberration and go on to show the all the positives that he has done in the past
- a chance to secure a bright future - if youth is on his side, then explain that his future is a concern and he has good plans, etc

Bro,

If we try 2(b) (i) but get rejected, do you think can try 2(b) (ii) by sending all the good testimonials, ask MP write letters bla bla bla...

Yes, that is what I have been trying to explain. That is why your representation must make an impact. It does not mean that you do not seek representation, you should but make sure it hits the spot.

Someone told me today that representations rarely works once a DPP takes on a case, unless it is really material and significant. Most times, they will go ahead with the preferred charges.

Is it true?

 

[scroobal]

Summary of all the viewpoints expressed by those in the thread

1) The moment your brother does not plead guilty, it is assummed that he is going to trial. PTC is just another admin step along the journey to trial

2) Anytime along the journey towards the trial date, your brother can do a couple of things at any time;
a) Make representation/s to the AG
b) Indicate that he wants to PG

3) Representation are 2 main types
a) To raise significant and material facts on the all allegations and or the conduct of the investigation.
b) Seek mercy

Both options may lead to withdrawal of charges (DATA / DNAQ), reduce no of charges, face lower charges or reduce the number to charges to proceed

4) One can also on the trial date, PG or seek representation. PTCs are to pre-empt last minute representations and further mentions. But it is still an avenue.

5) If your brother wants to PG on the trial date, try and seek representation from the duty court DPP to reduce number of charges. Many DPPs accede to avoid wasting time on trial.

6) Whether PG or trial, make sure the mitigation is well prepared for the end. Mitigation is to provide reasons why he should not face the full brunt of the law. In some, cases, it has led to fines, probation or even suspended sentences etc

6) If going to trial, conduct of the accused and his demeanour is important including dressing, good manners and appearing sincere.

At the end of the day, it is a wide area of coverage and multiple options exist. At least, you know some clear lines of approach.

ps. I purely speculating here but not once did you raise talking to the IO about the case. Typically it means your brother does not want you to talk to the IO because it is highly likely your brother did all those things and he does not want the IO to tell you the full story. So the IO is caricatured as the monster while the DPP is the angel.

 

[sharin75]

FANTASTIC SUMMARY

Thank you all that have contributed. Very very grateful to have your effort.

Once the case is over, I would like to personally buy each of you a kopi...paiseh la...cos really foresee need to vomit a lot of cash for this bro of mine.

Please add me as friend and I shall update you (those who added me) when the case is over.

Once again...kamsia brothers!!

 

[scroobal]

I thought I add this to this thread. I am sure busdriver can't reconcile why I write in layman's language while I seem familiar with the law. The natural conclusion is to assume that one is guessing ( layman's language ) , conjecturing (legal language) etc and I don't blame him.

Welcome to this forum. Good to have you.

 

[ah_phah]

PTC is just a prelude for the judge to discern if the case is worth a hearing, or if the defendant is claiming for leniency. its just a short drama at max 10-15min.

no big deal la... what's more crucial is everything after the PTC

 

[scroobal]

PTC's primary purpose is to reduce the number of unnecessary or irrelevant witnesses, submission of docs etc which normal procedures do require but if all parties agree, these can be done away with. Plus any other admin matters that might cause cases to drag on or be postponed. It primary purpose to expedite the trial while justice is being served.

Though not its original purpose or intent, it helps both sides to plan strategy for their desired outcomes after attending the PTC/s

All cases are worth hearing.

PTC is just a prelude for the judge to discern if the case is worth a hearing, or if the defendant is claiming for leniency. its just a short drama at max 10-15min.

no big deal la... what's more crucial is everything after the PTC

 

[sharin75]

ps. I purely speculating here but not once did you raise talking to the IO about the case. Typically it means your brother does not want you to talk to the IO because it is highly likely your brother did all those things and he does not want the IO to tell you the full story. So the IO is caricatured as the monster while the DPP is the angel.

For the whole day, I can't get login to comment, I supposed my account was moderated for asking too much?? :(

But to clarify, the IO was not forthcoming to discuss with me. Although some of the points my bro told me seems like BS, I tried to verify with him...but everytime, he seemed evasive (over the phone)...just asked me check with my bro...as though was afraid I was fishing something from him.

Heck, what's done was done and now the state is going against my bro. Luckily, my bro did convince me that he had raised a reasonable and material doubt.

Hence, I am here trying my luck to get some advice here. My bro lawyer still hasn't contact me although he promised he will (last week).

Can a lawyer words be trusted?? :p

 

[GoldenDragon]

For the whole day, I can't get login to comment, I supposed my account was moderated for asking too much?? :(

But to clarify, the IO was not forthcoming to discuss with me. Although some of the points my bro told me seems like BS, I tried to verify with him...but everytime, he seemed evasive (over the phone)...just asked me check with my bro...as though was afraid I was fishing something from him.

Heck, what's done was done and now the state is going against my bro. Luckily, my bro did convince me that he had raised a reasonable and material doubt.

Hence, I am here trying my luck to get some advice here. My bro lawyer still hasn't contact me although he promised he will (last week).

Can a lawyer words be trusted?? :p

Never trust a lawyer completely. They will try their best to nudge you into claiming trial so they can charge you more. And they don't keep promises. So, I am not surprised your lawyer didn't call, as promised. Trust me bro, I have dealt with many lawyers previously.

There are some PG lawyers who will always use the same mitigating factors (first-timer, not on criminal records, remorseful, cooperated fully with investigations, unlikely to offend again, family problems - financial and relationship etc) Some prepare your case the morning of trial or night before.

As for the reluctance of the IO to disclose more info, it could be because of "self fear". The IO may be fearful of getting quoted or misquoted. He may also be fearful his line is bugged. Many are afraid even of their own shadows.

When our relatives and friends are uner investigation, they tend to disclose to you the "positives". The "negatives" may not be fully disclosed, until the hearing or trial.

If you are comfortable in disclosing, who is the lawyer representing your bro?

 

[sharin75]

If you are comfortable in disclosing, who is the lawyer representing your bro?

Bro thanks for your concern. But at this stage, I think it would be wiser not disclosing any names....

:o

 

[silverfox@]

Hence, I am here trying my luck to get some advice here. My bro lawyer still hasn't contact me although he promised he will (last week).

Can a lawyer words be trusted?? :p

Is your lawyer serious? :(

 

[GoldenDragon]

Bro thanks for your concern. But at this stage, I think it would be wiser not disclosing any names....

:o

IOs are generally ok chaps. Only a few idiots will go for an overkill. IOs hate trials coz they have to be fully prepared with the case. Also, the earlier they clear their files, the better for them. If your brother's lawyer make a reasonable representation, it is highly likely AGC will agree.

If the evidence against your brother is not strong, unlikely AGC will proceed as charged. They are not crazy.

If your brother is innocent, fight the case. I had a friend who had to face a case in court years ago. If found guilty, mandatory incarceration. He sourced for several lawyers. They quoted him 4-8k per trial day.

My friend has only "O" levels. He almost gave up coz no money to engage a lawyer. Without going to the specifics, I advised him to fight the case himself. He was acquitted and he won the case battling a DPP!

In a capsule, the charge was not appropriate. The appropriate charge could no longer be applicable to my friend. Until today, I think the land division's Head of Investigation and the DPP from AGC really screwed up this particular case. Needless to say, I feel shiok knowing I did something good for my friend.

I respect your decision not to disclose the ID of the lawyer. Best wishes to your bro then and do keep us updated.