Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retirement

longbow · May 13, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

Base on your angle then very few in the world own homes. To me, if you can sell and take the profit from the investment (home), if the banks are willing to use your (investment/home/tenancy agrement) as collateral then it is home.

Like that many of the millionaires in HK are homeless since their assets have short leases and many still owe the banks.

Ramseth said:
Very few people in Singapore own their homes. Should be around 10% generously. The rest are leaseholds and rentals. The question is not home ownership, but a home till death. It's quite OK for anyone to think that poor or stupid shouldn't have a home till death since they're too poor or stupid to afford it. It's really OK, don't have to feel bad about it. You richer and cleverer don't owe them a living anyway.

jw5 · May 13, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

It has never been to provide cheap and affordable housing to the poor. Otherwise they would have sold flats at cost a long time ago.
It's about making the country (and of course the organization building the flats and the government investment companies) richer, and the people slogging hard so that they will have little time for anything else.
The commonly used and probably overused phrase "Leave no man behind" has never applied to SG.
SG has never been about making sure no individual is left behind. They are quite happy to leave a few laggards behind, if it means that the "battle is won" and all the elites and the majority of the people and the country "move forward in victory" and at the same time look good to the world community. The plight of a few unfortunate individuals has never been a major issue.

Papsmearer · May 13, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

Goh Meng Seng said:
It is not a good idea.

Anyway, there is an alternative method available in HK. HK government sold some flats to the lower income group at cost price, minus the land cost. When these people want to sell, they could sell to people with an income ceiling of X amount as well i.e. lower income group. But if they are to sell to other people without income restrictions, they must top up the land cost while selling.

I think this is a fairer system.

Goh Meng Seng

U don't have to look all the way to HKG. Just look across the causeway at our supposedly inferior Mat neighbours. They have a very simple solution. They have a bumi price (discounted) and a non bumi price for everyone else. Therefore in S'pore, they can have a heavily discounted price for first timers who have served their NS, local born, etc. And another price for new immigrants, women, etc. All of a sudden, the native born male can see the merits of NS, and his desirability for women looking for marriage is now enhanced.

Goh Meng Seng · May 13, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

longbow said:
GMS - instead of your HK plan why not look at HDB offerings for the poor.

New BTO Yishun. Studio flats 37sm $64 to $84K

Based on $140 psf building cost = $52K building cost

Housing Grant $40K-$70K = $30K for flat. That is below cost with equity down the road!!

Studio apartment is not conducive for family building. Studio Apartment is for singles or retirees.

If a family could only afford studio apartment, they would be better off renting from HDB. Renting is a good option as it gives the family time and space to save up for retirement or spend more in investing in their children education.

Goh Meng Seng

Papsmearer · May 13, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

longbow said:
To be fair, the Singapore Gov is usually very very transparent about their transactions.

I think the material inputs have increase tremendously over 25 years. I think just building materials alone have gone up many folds in pricing. Just look at major material for HDB flats, sand, granite, iron bars, copper wiring - China's rise has impacted world prices.

Also flats of today have much better specs, better QC, added requirements like bomb shelter, lifts on every floor, better fixtures like sitting toilet vs hole on the floor. Old school contractors will tell you about using seasand (very cheap vs river sand) for the concrete and using more sand vs cement. Result is rusting rebar, spalling etc etc.

Anyway I believe in fair market value. And this whole idea of HDB paying more than market is nonsense

Contrary to what many think, there is little of this "in bed with the HDB" type of incidences. Most of the HDB officers are straight lace matter of fact people. The only potential advantage is if you are selling new service. HDB may then ask you to help write the tender contract. But award still goes to lowest bidder in 99% of the cases. Must not forget that HDB flats are cookie cutter in design so pricing because the game. Hard for people to rig the process because it is all so low tech.

Remember that we went from a 3rd world to first world nation over that time. I know for a fact that just a scant 10 years ago during prop slump construction cost for a house was S$120/sf (building house from ground up without fixtures. Today to make the same house would cost you closer to $250 psf without fixtures.

I just want to say one name to you "Teh Cheang Wan". If you think the HDB tender process is truly transparent, and no one is in bed with the HDB, good for you. I have some sand I want to sell you. During Teh's time, they also had all these supposed transparency and what not. Yet, you have Teh. Real estate development by its very nature is rife with opportunities for abuse and corruption. If Teh can receive millions of dollars from contractors, you can safely assume the real cost of building a flat is not reflected in the tender.

Weekim · May 13, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

Goh Meng Seng said:
Singapore does not have such cheap alternatives for elderly people. Besides, for ageing population, that would mean over building of flats.

Goh Meng Seng

Yes thats correct. We are a small country, not enough land to house so many old, unproductive and thus useless people.

MBT is right. Sell and move to retire in Malaysia comfortably.

kingrant · May 13, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

If yr outlay was lower because you have a choice to buy a cost plus flat, then you can have a lot more take home to save and invest in other things for yr nest egg.

longbow said:
I think few would want to buy such restricted flats. If you are poor, under this HK scheme you will buy a 4 rm flat from Sengkang at $140K (cost - building cost with land thrown in for free). But you would be restricted from much capital appreciation since you can only selling to similar poor people (even chnages in quota rules has huge impact on selling rpice of HDB).

If I were poor I would rather buy that low floor Sengkang flat for $210K, get the $30K grant and pay $180K for my flat. That is $40K more but if I finance over 30 years $40K is not msuch but I stand to reap a $200K gain when and if I sell down the road in. Of course if I have no money then I go for 3rm flat and still hope for equity windfall. Anyway, demand for such flats will be very small.

If the person the person in HK flat is doing better he has little equity to upgrade to a better condo (something that is happening enmass in Singapore). If he stay till he dies, there is less equity to pass on to his children.

BTW I keep using 4rm flats because when you look at the new 2 and 3rms, HDB is selling at below cost!

Ramseth · May 13, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

longbow said:
Base on your angle then very few in the world own homes. To me, if you can sell and take the profit from the investment (home), if the banks are willing to use your (investment/home/tenancy agrement) as collateral then it is home.

Like that many of the millionaires in HK are homeless since their assets have short leases and many still owe the banks.

You've mistaken what I meant. The first home is never an investment, it's a necessity, just like you don't invest in food, you need to eat it to survive. You need a place to stay, whether buy, lease or rent, no? You invest in food only when you open a foodstall or food factory. You invest in property only after you have settled yourself somewhere to live.

HK millionaires homeless? I don't think so. They're liquid enough to sustain their rentals and loans, so that's they're choice.

Chau Ve Nist · May 14, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

Goh Meng Seng said:
*Shonky contents snipped*

Goh Meng Seng
Secretary General
National Solidarity Party

Duh! Why don't you go the whole hog and demand that medical and hospitalisation services, bus and MRT fares, food and all other essential goods and services be sold at cost? That sounds even better. Plus it may fool enough of the gullible to get you an NCMP seat. (Forget about being an MP. You won't get the votes of the 25% minorities).

BTW, there is no need to "imagine" that "any first world country or world-class government asking their people to “sell house for retirement”"?". A bit of work put into simple research instead of relying on your imagination will show you that the concept of reverse mortgages on properties for the purpose of funding retirements is widely practised in "first world" countries.

Chau Ve Nist · May 14, 2010

Re: Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retiremen

pocoyo said:
All along, I notice most chinese speaking elites in SG, will not bother to be involved in Politics. I mean in the past 30 to 40 years as what I know.

As for those involved, are mostly in the PAP wards. The famous one is like Ong Teng Cheong. The less famous one are like Seng Han Thong and Chan Soo Sen as I believe these two are also chinese speakers by origin.

Every now and then, I was wondering why they are not many chinese speaking elites involved in local politics. Because as you notice, PAP is largely formed and lead by english speaking elites. In fact, I suspect this is the main reason why PAP are arrogant by nature.

In my impression, english speaking elites that gone through pure western education mostly do not believe in the well being of common people which are a bunch of lesser mortal in their views. Because they always feel that they are more superior.

In contrast, I believe most chinese speaking elites by nature would be more down to earth due to the kind of education and values that are implanted in them.

It is until recent years that I see one of this example that has stepped into the Parliament successfully is Low Thia Khiang.

I will hope Goh Meng Seng would be the next one. Because I strongly believe we need more of such character to enter the Parliament to dilute the arrogance of the PAP.

Regards.

Singapore can never and should never allow the Chinese educated to be in power and in control. They have very narrow racist, chauvinistic views that will result in Singapore disintegrating as a society. These Chinese eds suffer from a serious delusion that Singapore is the mini Middle Kingdom in SEA. Everything that they say and do revolves around Chinese supremacy, Chinese language, culture, practices, etc.

BTW, GMS can be hardly considered an "elite".

Sell New HDB flats at cost instead of asking citizens to sell flats for retirement

longbow

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