Goh Meng Seng's myopic logic...

[Tristan]

When confronted with the fact that the grant will help ease the burden of making downpayment of young couples looking for their first home, GMS says: "If they can't afford the down payment, they couldn't possibly afford the loans as well. Giving grant will not help but actually aggravate their financial situation for the next 30 years."

GMS myopic logic is that people who cannot afford the downpayment will never be able to afford the loans as well forever. He thinks everyone is like him with no capabilities of doing better in life - starting a small computer shop and then remaining a small computer shop forever.

GMS in his small mind doesn't realise that there are many people with lofty aspirations, ability to make money and ambitions. Maybe they don't have money now, but with some help, they may be millionaires tomorrow. The grant is not all about $$$. It's about giving people a start in life - something small minds like GMS will never understand.

 

[ivebert]

When confronted with the fact that the grant will help ease the burden of making downpayment of young couples looking for their first home, GMS says: "If they can't afford the down payment, they couldn't possibly afford the loans as well. Giving grant will not help but actually aggravate their financial situation for the next 30 years."

GMS myopic logic is that people who cannot afford the downpayment will never be able to afford the loans as well forever. He thinks everyone is like him with no capabilities of doing better in life - starting a small computer shop and then remaining a small computer shop forever.

GMS in his small mind doesn't realise that there are many people with lofty aspirations, ability to make money and ambitions. Maybe they don't have money now, but with some help, they may be millionaires tomorrow. The grant is not all about $$$. It's about giving people a start in life - something small minds like GMS will never understand.

You are very wrong

He has no logic at all

For a computer shop owner, all he does is to make small purchases and think ahead for a couple of months. That's why he cannot be trusted to run a GRC and there's a need to let everyone know of this person's flaws.

GMS, please stick to being a political activist.
Do it your own life if you love Singapore

 

[Devil Within]

GMS says: "If they can't afford the down payment, they couldn't possibly afford the loans as well. Giving grant will not help but actually aggravate their financial situation for the next 30 years."

I find nothing wrong with this statement. The solution is to lower the price to reflect the true market value of the buyers without having to go into too much debt.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

At what cost? Who will bear the cost?

Not merely about government bearing the cost but its those who come later will have to bear the cost of even higher HDB prices.

Lofty aspirations must be moderated with realistic perspective. PAP has done a "great job" in hoodwinking people into thinking that they can afford high price HDB flats by extending the loan period and reduction of down payment quantum. Yes, you are happy at the moment but look, there are actually a lot of Singaporeans who are forced to sell out at heavy cost when they finally realized that they couldn't afford the mortgage payment at all!

These are REAL ISSUES on the ground, those people who are being hoodwinked and even now, being FORCED to buy HDB flats when apparently, they could no longer afford! NSP, particularly the Malay Bureau has been meeting people who face such problems and helping them to re-configure their lives. Yes, all about HDB problems.

Look at things from a broader perspective. You claim I have a small mind but I can tell you that I have seen lot more things that you can imagine to come to this "politically incorrect" stand. If MBT wants to debate about this, I would gladly oblige to do it with all openness.

Goh Meng Seng

GMS myopic logic is that people who cannot afford the downpayment will never be able to afford the loans as well forever. He thinks everyone is like him with no capabilities of doing better in life - starting a small computer shop and then remaining a small computer shop forever.

GMS in his small mind doesn't realise that there are many people with lofty aspirations, ability to make money and ambitions. Maybe they don't have money now, but with some help, they may be millionaires tomorrow. The grant is not all about $$$. It's about giving people a start in life - something small minds like GMS will never understand.

 

[Tristan]

Look at things from a broader perspective. You claim I have a small mind but I can tell you that I have seen lot more things that you can imagine to come to this "politically incorrect" stand. If MBT wants to debate about this, I would gladly oblige to do it with all openness. - Goh Meng Seng

You open a debate with MBT on this, and you will have a black eye.

He will bring out his records and tell you the benefits of the grant - how it has helped young couples not only buy their first home, but it benefits their relationships with their parents as well, therefore benefitting society as a whole.

He will point you to the fact that there are many unwanted flats in Jurong that have found occupancy with the help of the grant, thereby ensuring fair distribution.

He will tell you that after running the grant for almost 2 decades, no one has come out openly to condemn it (except for an idiot economist wannabe going by the name of GMS who thinks he is smarter than everyone else).

He will tell you that the grant has helped Singaporeans and not PRs or FTs, thereby accentuating his own popularity.

He will point you to the well-meaning conditions of the grant and it is in no way a form of encouragement to bite off more than you can chew.

He will tell you the grant is there to help, and you can choose not to take it or abuse it, that it is the garments' policy to help its citizens own their own home.

He will tell you it is impossible to sell HDB at cost because we are not an economy like North Korea.

He will tell you HDB cannot be continually building new flats - where to find the land? and what to do with old flats? And what will that effect have in a free market?

What are you going to answer him? With your cock and bull home-brewed economics? He will shoot you down fact after fact. You won't stand a chance. And to top it off, you won't be very popular with the electorate as well after the debate. People expect politicians holding office to offer help, not take away help.

 

[Glaringly]

By your reasoning, you are asking every aspiring young couples to go and buy a 10,000 feet bungalow before they have even collected their first pay check.

GMS myopic logic is that people who cannot afford the downpayment will never be able to afford the loans as well forever. He thinks everyone is like him with no capabilities of doing better in life - starting a small computer shop and then remaining a small computer shop forever.

 

[Forvendet]

According to GMS logic,

1. If you can't afford $1k monthly mortgage (husband + wife $500 each), but no CPF enough for downpayment, government shouldn't help you. No flat your problem.

2. If government helps the needy and eligible with grant, all hell breaks loose and everybody else suddenly has $40k extra cash to drive the market up.

3. If government price new flats at cost, young couples will be able to buy without grants. Older flat prices crash is older flat owners' problem.

4. If government fails to build enough new flats for new demands because land not enough, it's government's problem.

5. What do you want? Rent a room, rent a whole flat or live in your parents' or relatives' home? Sounds familiar like VB hawker, foodcourt or restaurant.

People who can afford condo and landed don't need it and don't care. They can even bid $70k for COE. The younger lower middle classes need it to kickstart a family. But GMS says no. GMS is neither socialist or capitalist, neither charitable nor charlatan. He's simply a madman. Tampines voters, make him lose his deposit for heavens' sake, Tampines' sake and Singapore's sake.

 

[Zombie]

The solution is to lower the price to reflect the true market value of the buyers without having to go into too much debt.

let's say
buyers paying $160k
sellers selling $200k
grant for each transaction $40k

so, transacted price = $200k

if you remove grant, the true market value will be between $160k to $200k..
if elasticity of demand and supply are similar, the true market value may be around $180k ie halfway mark.. buyers pay $20k more, sellers receive $20k less

buyers will always pay more in the case of no grant (unless there is panic selling).. and find it more difficult to get a home as transactions drop (less willing sellers)

therefore, to help buyers by removing grant, is not logical..

 

[Airlib]

A

If MBT wants to debate about this, I would gladly oblige to do it with all openness.

Goh Meng Seng

Mai lai lah... Ah Seng... Again trying to show gusto by challenging MBT to 'chee koo pak'???

Propose something more realistic can?? For a start, a translation of your that article about the grant thingy into the 4 main language and don't need to act smart by using bombastic economic terms, lingo... The average joe at the kopitiam don't read econ papers for leisure.
Do something the people on the ground can understand and not try to 'copycat' what the PAP does by trying to sound learned....

 

[Devil Within]

let's say
buyers paying $160k
sellers selling $200k
grant for each transaction $40k

so, transacted price = $200k

if you remove grant, the true market value will be between $160k to $200k..
if elasticity of demand and supply are similar, the true market value may be around $180k ie halfway mark.. buyers pay $20k more, sellers receive $20k less

buyers will always pay more in the case of no grant (unless there is panic selling).. and find it more difficult to get a home as transactions drop (less willing sellers)

therefore, to help buyers by removing grant, is not logical..

If buyers are finding it difficult to fork out that deposit, and sellers couldn't find buyers that can, then it's about time sellers need to lower the price to a level where buyers find it easier to pay for the down payment. This price level will reflect the true balance level of (affordable) buyers and (willing) sellers. That is the work of a true free market principle. Having a 3rd party coming in to displace this balance of true affordable buyers and willing sellers, will cause the price to inflate or deflate off balance.

 

[Zombie]

If buyers are finding it difficult to fork out that deposit, and sellers couldn't find buyers that can, then it's about time sellers need to lower the price to a level where buyers find it easier to pay for the down payment. This price level will reflect the true balance level of (affordable) buyers and (willing) sellers. That is the work of a true free market principle. Having a 3rd party coming in to displace this balance of true affordable buyers and willing sellers, will cause the price to inflate or deflate off balance.

you are correct about free market... but not all things need to be... besides, GMS is not keen on free market, else he would not recommend new flats at costs, disregarding the market pricing basis..

anyway, i was just pointing out how the removal of grant does not benefit the buyers..

 

[lovesamleong]

Goh Meng Seng's myopic logic...

We have lawyers (CST, CTL), economists (KJ) with reputable degrees from reputable universities.

What does GMS has? I'm not surprised if this guy is only good enough for a computer shop owner.

Ps. Does GMS has a university degree? If so, is the degree from a reputable university? Is it from degree mill, correspondence degree or 2nd class university like CQU etc.

 

[Tristan]

The grant comes with certain conditions and it is not something that is forced. As with many things in life that is a double-edged sword, you have to take responsibility of your own decisions. For certain situations, the grant could be a real help. It is not the garment's responsibility to micro-manage people's lives, but to offer as much alternatives and help as possible for its citizens.

The small mind of GMS doesn't see beyond the economic point - therefore his vision is myopic. And how can pigeonholes be sold at cost? Perhaps in North Korea, it could. Market forces in a free economy will make that impossible. Even if HDB sells flats at cost, do you think flat owners will want that? Location, conditions, design, size, BTO flats,... these are all offered because people's tastes differ and there is a price that comes attached to it. Like food, some prefer lobster, others prefer ikan bilis. If it's left to GMS and his small mind, all will eat rice and kangkong. Even then, you will have some who will prefer a certain grade of rice or kangkong and will will go around making a killing from that... When will it end?

Some forummers are right. GMS cannot be trusted to handle a GRC or make policies. He just doesn't have the experience neither the foresight to do that. We have to accept that some people are just born with a small mind and cannot do great things.

 

[Devil Within]

you are correct about free market... but not all things need to be... besides, GMS is not keen on free market, else he would not recommend new flats at costs, disregarding the market pricing basis..

anyway, i was just pointing out how the removal of grant does not benefit the buyers..

To begin with, HDB is not free market. It is a gov institution and not a private entity. Hence, by right it should not profit as a private sector as the cost of land it possess was not acquired at true market value.

The removal of grant will not benefit the buyers and providing grants will also not benefit the buyers as it will push the price higher and hence, push buyers further into debts.

HDB should provide housing at or near cost as HDB is part of the gov institution, and should not profit like a private company.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Look at things from a broader perspective. You claim I have a small mind but I can tell you that I have seen lot more things that you can imagine to come to this "politically incorrect" stand. If MBT wants to debate about this, I would gladly oblige to do it with all openness. - Goh Meng Seng

You open a debate with MBT on this, and you will have a black eye.

Well, try me.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Shawshank]

Look at things from a broader perspective. You claim I have a small mind but I can tell you that I have seen lot more things that you can imagine to come to this "politically incorrect" stand. If MBT wants to debate about this, I would gladly oblige to do it with all openness.

Goh Meng Seng

Yeah like how broadly you kept going back to the MBT thread on how he was taking a pic with some lao chio.

You are a fktard. PERIOD

But please continue to do so, if not we won't know how to differenciate fucked up opposition like you with better oppositions.

 

[Zombie]

To begin with, HDB is not free market. It is a gov institution and not a private entity. Hence, by right it should not profit as a private sector as the cost of land it possess was not acquired at true market value.

The removal of grant will not benefit the buyers and providing grants will also not benefit the buyers as it will push the price higher and hence, push buyers further into debts.

HDB should provide housing at or near cost as HDB is part of the gov institution, and should not profit like a private company.

as long as HDB supplies flats into the market, they are just part of the market...... the only difference is primary or secondary markets and they are very much substitutable... therefore, nobody cares who you are or how much you profited in your sales........

... just like new and old car markets, when prices go up in one, demand will flow to the other... and price distortion in one will lead to the other..

as per my last post,
with grant, transacted price $200k but buyers only pay $160K
without grant, buyers pay $160-200K, probably around $180K
so how does having grant push buyers into more debt?

 

[Shawshank]

We have lawyers (CST, CTL), economists (KJ) with reputable degrees from reputable universities.

What does GMS has? I'm not surprised if this guy is only good enough for a computer shop owner.

Ps. Does GMS has a university degree? If so, is the degree from a reputable university? Is it from degree mill, correspondence degree or 2nd class university like CQU etc.

Bro, regardless of whether GMS has a degree from reputable uni or not, we all can see how moronic GMS is.

 

[Devil Within]

as long as HDB supplies flats into the market, they are just part of the market...... the only difference is primary or secondary markets and they are very much substitutable... therefore, nobody cares who you are or how much you profited in your sales........

... just like new and old car markets, when prices go up in one, demand will flow to the other... and price distortion in one will lead to the other..

as per my last post,
with grant, transacted price $200k but buyers only pay $160K
without grant, buyers pay $160-200K, probably around $180K
so how does having grant push buyers into more debt?

Problem here is HDB is the biggest land owner and they control the entry price.

If grant do not push prices up, then why stop at $40k? Why not have grant of $100k? And if grant has no effect on market price nor getting buyers into more debt, why not raise it to $200k?

 

[ivebert]

Problem here is HDB is the biggest land owner and they control the entry price.

If grant do not push prices up, then why stop at $40k? Why not have grant of $100k? And if grant has no effect on market price nor getting buyers into more debt, why not raise it to $200k?

Give the peasants a house and they want a car next

:oIo::oIo::oIo::oIo:

After years of cheap HDB, PAP has stopped because the sinkies start gambling their savings away and visiting prostitutes!

It is really a good policy to have expensive HDB to keep the spurs on the useless peasants