• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Vivain: CPeeF Not Ponzi Scheme. Other Countries' Pension Is! Discuss.

makapaaa

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
33,627
Points
0
<TABLE id=msgUN border=0 cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD id=msgUNsubj vAlign=top>
icon.aspx
Coffeeshop Chit Chat - Useless ChiakLiouBee PAPee Ministars</TD><TD id=msgunetc noWrap align=right> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=msgtable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="96%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=msg vAlign=top><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgbfr1 width="1%"> </TD><TD><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=msghead vAlign=top><TD class=msgF width="1%" noWrap align=right>From: </TD><TD class=msgFname width="68%" noWrap>Fkapore <NOBR></NOBR> </TD><TD class=msgDate width="30%" noWrap align=right>2:21 am </TD></TR><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgT height=20 width="1%" noWrap align=right>To: </TD><TD class=msgTname width="68%" noWrap>ALL <NOBR></NOBR></TD><TD class=msgNum noWrap align=right> (1 of 2) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgleft rowSpan=4 width="1%"> </TD><TD class=wintiny noWrap align=right>31058.1 </TD></TR><TR><TD height=8></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgtxt>Dr Vivian expressed worries at “entitlement mentality” of Singaporeans

April 3, 2010 by admin
Filed under Headlines

Leave a comment


Written by Our Correspondent
Indulging in shameless self-praise and self-aggrandizement is becoming a favorite past-time of Singapore’s multi-millionaire ministers these days.
Coming right after Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan and Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean, Minister for Community, Youth and Sports Dr Vivian Balakrishnan became the latest PAP minister to wax lyrical about its manifold ”accomplishments”.
In a recent speech at his alma mater NUS, Dr Vivian heaped generous praises on the PAP’s CPF scheme as a “sustainable” system which ensures sufficient retirement funds for Singaporeans as they grow old.
He also took a pot shot at other systems which pay the holders as they go along unlike the CPF which holds the savings of its members ransom till they reach 62 years of age:
“It (CPF) is a fully funded, defined contribution scheme. This is based on the important principle that every generation has to earn and save enough for itself. This is the only way to ensure the future sustainability of the scheme. All ‘pay as you go’ systems will sooner or later either go bankrupt or will saddle future generations with unsustainable levels of taxation,” he added.
Dr Vivian criticized such schemes as “political Ponzi schemes”. A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to separate investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned.
“There have been some academic papers published that argue ‘pay as you go’ defined benefit schemes will provide better protection against inflation and are more redistributive in nature. Let me be very blunt about such arguments: I think these are political polemics. When we start off with a young society, the inflow of funds will exceed the outflow in a ‘pay as you go’ system. But with an ageing population, these political Ponzi schemes will run out of money, and the fiscal pressures will eventually become unsustainable.”
He claimed that many countries are “learning” from Singapore and are moving towards a scheme which resembles CPF:
“Many countries curtailing pension benefits are in fact trying to move towards a scheme that resembles ours: a defined contribution plan. Yet we still get calls from Singaporeans for the Government to introduce old age pension benefits for all senior citizens.”
He expressed concerns that there may be increasing demands on the government to use more of its reserves to care for Singaporeans:
“It always starts like this: the Government is rich; we can afford to carve out a small percentage of our gross domestic product or utilise a small percentage of our reserves. This is the beginning of a slippery slope. The moment you have a government that embarks on such a course, you better start worrying about the future. We are worried about an entitlement mentality. Today, people know that the primary responsibility to provide for their lives falls on themselves; and secondly, their families.”
Though Singapore is the second richest nation in Asia after Japan in terms of GDP per capita income, Singaporeans enjoy few social welfare benefits from the PAP which has always eschewed “welfarism” in preference for “self-reliance”.
While the cash-flushed state is able to lose billions of dollars of national reserves via its two sovereign wealth funds to bail out ailing U.S. and European banks, it balks at providing more aid to needy and poor Singaporeans.
When asked by MP Lily Neo in 2007 to increase the monthly Public Assistance allowance so that its recipients can have three basic meals a day, Minister for Community, Youth and Sports Dr Vivian Balakrishnan retorted:
“How much do you want? Do you want three meals in a hawker centre, food court or restaurant?”
He added that “one limiting factor must be the sum that we give through public assistance cannot be so generous as to erode the work ethic.”
[Source: Channel News Asia, 9 March 2007]
The Straits Times reported of late that there were only 11 successful PA applicants between July 2008 and Deccember 2009. MCYS said that the low numbers showed that Singaporeans want to be as “self-reliant” as much as possible.
Dr Vivian Balakrishnan earns nearly $2 million dollars a year, or more than 4 times the annual salary of U.S. President Barack Obama. He had already earned a few thousand dollars in his pocket by making this speech at NUS.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
I'm also concerned about the entitlement mentality.
I'm concerned that he thinks he is entitled to our vote.
 
<TABLE id=msgUN border=0 cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD id=msgUNsubj vAlign=top>
icon.aspx
Coffeeshop Chit Chat - Useless ChiakLiouBee PAPee Ministars</TD><TD id=msgunetc noWrap align=right> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=msgtable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="96%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=msg vAlign=top><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgbfr1 width="1%"> </TD><TD><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=msghead vAlign=top><TD class=msgF width="1%" noWrap align=right>From: </TD><TD class=msgFname width="68%" noWrap>Fkapore <NOBR></NOBR> </TD><TD class=msgDate width="30%" noWrap align=right>2:21 am </TD></TR><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgT height=20 width="1%" noWrap align=right>To: </TD><TD class=msgTname width="68%" noWrap>ALL <NOBR></NOBR></TD><TD class=msgNum noWrap align=right> (1 of 2) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgleft rowSpan=4 width="1%"> </TD><TD class=wintiny noWrap align=right>31058.1 </TD></TR><TR><TD height=8></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgtxt>Dr Vivian expressed worries at “entitlement mentality” of Singaporeans

April 3, 2010 by admin
Filed under Headlines

Leave a comment


Written by Our Correspondent
In a recent speech at his alma mater NUS, Dr Vivian heaped generous praises on the PAP’s CPF scheme as a “sustainable” system which ensures sufficient retirement funds for Singaporeans as they grow old.
He also took a pot shot at other systems which pay the holders as they go along unlike the CPF which holds the savings of its members ransom till they reach 62 years of age:
“It (CPF) is a fully funded, defined contribution scheme. This is based on the important principle that every generation has to earn and save enough for itself. This is the only way to ensure the future sustainability of the scheme. All ‘pay as you go’ systems will sooner or later either go bankrupt or will saddle future generations with unsustainable levels of taxation,” he added.
Dr Vivian criticized such schemes as “political Ponzi schemes”. A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to separate investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned.
“There have been some academic papers published that argue ‘pay as you go’ defined benefit schemes will provide better protection against inflation and are more redistributive in nature. Let me be very blunt about such arguments: I think these are political polemics. When we start off with a young society, the inflow of funds will exceed the outflow in a ‘pay as you go’ system. But with an ageing population, these political Ponzi schemes will run out of money, and the fiscal pressures will eventually become unsustainable.”
He claimed that many countries are “learning” from Singapore and are moving towards a scheme which resembles CPF:
“Many countries curtailing pension benefits are in fact trying to move towards a scheme that resembles ours: a defined contribution plan. Yet we still get calls from Singaporeans for the Government to introduce old age pension benefits for all senior citizens.”

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

1. The Singapore CPF pays off interests rates that are NOT inflation proof because of its low yield and rate of returns.
2. This is confirmed by the high rate of contribution that still cannot suffice to pay for one's retirement and the need to further pay for a 'compulsory' annuity scheme.
The CPF is really a disguised form of taxation that the PAP govt uses to 'gamble' in money losing investments which is WORSE than the pay as go taxation schemes that other countries use to fund their pension schemes.

In the taxation Pay as you go system, money invested by the govt is ploughed back to benefit the people in 'generous' pensions and welfare schemes that everyone benefits.
In the SG system, where the GRC/GIC makes hefty profits, of what benefit does the S'porean in the Street share in the spoils? Those $200 one time 'reward' is mere pittance considering the BILLIONS Madam Ho Ching prefer to lose big time punting in the world's stock market. When Madam HC loses big time, Singaporeans "SUFFER" big time by having GST raised to 'help' the poor or having their CPF goalpost shifted time and again.
 
Last edited:
Dear Kiwi

I definitely have my problems with the Full Funded System as run by the PAP though in principal it its the right one

Unfortunately the Pay as you go system is unsustainable as 99% of Gov's do not invest but tax the present generation to pay for the benefits of current retiree's hence pay as you go.



Locke
 
If you are age 62 today, you cannot just wait for CPFB to start paying you the monthly payouts. You have to do something - you have to apply to CPFB using the online services to authorise them to commence the payouts to you. This part of the whole CPF scheme is quietly hidden and embedded under a layer of other topics and you won't find any help in the FAQ, which I thought was wicked, maybe wilfully so on the part of the govt. This was what I found. It is as if they didnt want you to know so you won't start drawing out. If you don't do anything to apply for it, you will not get any payout, and CPFB assumes you have deferred your draw down age. This is what is stated under FAQs (but it doesnt tell you to apply online for the drawdown):

"Members do not need to apply to defer the draw-down age. A member’s draw-down age will be deferred as long as the member does not apply to CPFB to commence the draw down of his RA savings."

You see how you have to draw your own inferences? Ponzi huh? To be forewarned is to be forearmed.
 
If you are age 62 today, you cannot just wait for CPFB to start paying you the monthly payouts. You have to do something - you have to apply to CPFB using the online services to authorise them to commence the payouts to you. This part of the whole CPF scheme is quietly hidden and embedded under a layer of other topics and you won't find any help in the FAQ, which I thought was wicked, maybe wilfully so on the part of the govt. This was what I found. It is as if they didnt want you to know so you won't start drawing out. If you don't do anything to apply for it, you will not get any payout, and CPFB assumes you have deferred your draw down age. This is what is stated under FAQs (but it doesnt tell you to apply online for the drawdown):

"Members do not need to apply to defer the draw-down age. A member’s draw-down age will be deferred as long as the member does not apply to CPFB to commence the draw down of his RA savings."

You see how you have to draw your own inferences? Ponzi huh? To be forewarned is to be forearmed.

kingrant, such a auto-deferment is a despicable unethical design.

You should write in to ST Forum to highlight this fact to the ignorant public.

I bet you if this fact is widely known, CPFB cannot in good conscience retain this surreptitious practice.
 
[Dr Vivian expressed worries at “entitlement mentality” of Singaporeans]

They are sucking millions per year from taxpayers, that's 250K per month...

still dare to talk cock about entitlement mentality?

joker man.
 
Dear Kiwi

I definitely have my problems with the Full Funded System as run by the PAP though in principal it its the right one

Unfortunately the Pay as you go system is unsustainable as 99% of Gov's do not invest but tax the present generation to pay for the benefits of current retiree's hence pay as you go.



Locke

Of course, no system is perfect but the current CPF system has clearly become a RIP OFF. One of the highest savings rate (30%!, used to be 50%in the past) and yet it cannot sustain a retiree.

The NZ Govt has a twin system, a voluntary KIWISAVER (like CPF) and the pay as you go tax funded system.
Unlike other countries where taxes alone are used to pay the pensions, the the NZ govt would be in that 1% SUSTAINABLE category because the NZ Govt uses the pay as you go (taxation method) to invest in a (SUPERFUND) to make the money grow to pay for the Pensions. There is also a voluntary "CPF" scheme known as the KIWISAVER that pays good returns (to guard against inflation eating away the savings) and it has the added advantage of govt contributions (capped at $1000 per annum) that matches $ for $ against the account holder's contributions.

The PAP govt could likewise easily use the 'profits' from the GLC/GIC investments to fund a similar universal pension scheme with their once burgeoning BILLIONS $$! on the 3 million Singaporeans. Surely Singaporeans who worked hard and 'sacrificed' for their country (NS et al) deserve some share in the profits in their old age! New citizens must stay at least 10 yrs to qualify for the pension(like the NZ system) benefits.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top