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Starting a business in solar energy. Feasible?
- Thread starter cityhope
- Start date
The ROI is so low that any risk factors slightly on setting will wipe out the investment gains and set the project to loss. If you want to save the world and make money, energy consulting and optimization is the way to go. The rest is talk cock and excuse for money laundering, MLM schemes or political lying.
Try Pinch Analysis-based Design, Process Integration and Intensification to minimize water and energy consumption.
PV solar panels are at most 8% efficient...you better off with solar ponds (salinity gradient power generation), which has a practical efficiency of 10%, and have been around for thousands of years.
Cheers,
Trout
Wind even better than solar. ROI will be less than 10 year if install on high building/near the shore.
Solar ROI forever will never braek even if calculated base on deficit(2.5~4%) on today technology and cost and maintainance cost. Solar only those want to make statement on enviroment/big company/goverment because money is not their own pocket money.
Spend money to get image and political gain.
Solar ROI forever will never braek even if calculated base on deficit(2.5~4%) on today technology and cost and maintainance cost. Solar only those want to make statement on enviroment/big company/goverment because money is not their own pocket money.
Spend money to get image and political gain.
Optimal windspeed required. Too slow no power, too fast, gearbox breaks or auto-safety stop. Wind turbines on roof are toys. Was a total scam in Europe, esp. UK. Near shore a joke in Singapore, unless we want to give up global sea trade. Wind initial investment not cheap. ROI calculation does not factor into increasing maintenance costs and mercy one is to very specialized gear boxes to run the turbine. Very space occupying. Optimization is the holy grail. It saves more money than these toys. But the toys make more money as another MLM game. Cost cut never does that.
Anyone wants to do the money making spin for solar stirling engines? No understand why gahbrament dont do the spin. What idiots to show they are not business people. Can achieve 31.25percent conversion. Know EU scamsters trying to feed off this thing for money
I wan!!! i looked at solar stirling 2-3 years ago, but dont know wat to do.....
It is still expensive and a little less cuckoo than the Venturi effect. But this kind of spin is a World Bank, EU backed scamster spin. You would do better with energy optimization like polygeneration. Your Gahbrament bragged about cogeneration when in some cases they were not. Co is so outdated. Do tri/quad-generation. Quad is already pushing it so stop at 3-4.5.
In a dictatorial country like Singapore, no one can do a Kalundborg or something similar like BASF. All these are fucking no big deal but EU small nothings brag like they invented warp travel. All feudal lords know how to is raise land taxes. A Singapore Kalunborg with 2 to 3 parks like this could get Singapore on the map and create a new industry to export. Generate more value than tax people revenue through revenue share and rentals.
Actually I'm interested to try to do a Kalundborg in Singapore. Did you go to the Industrial Ecology Summit at Kalundborg last month? I believe with some pinch design, we can do it fairly easily in Tuas, you know Linnhoff March (Now a division of KBC Energy Services)...do a energy pinch, water pinch, chemical potential pinch and hydrogen pinch design and suggest possible energy and potential cascades.
PM me if you are interested in talking about this more. I have a couple of contacts in this area, but hard to get things going.
Cheers,
Ray
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This has a practical efficiency of 10%, uses technology that's 100+ to 200 yrs old (conventional Rankine Cycle heat engine) and basically better than current mass produced PV panels. Your capital cost is basically just to dig the trench and dump seawater in. Essentially the whole Dead Sea is one giant solar panel which can be exploited for this purpose.
The theoretical efficiency of this system (assuming the bottom of the pond goes to around 85 C(358 K), and the top of the pond stays at around 25 C (298K), Carnot efficiency = 1- Tc/Th), unfortunately is only around 17%.
I know NUS and NTU are tossing around a couple of ideas about doing membrane distillation which is related to this concept, with some hydrophobic membrane technology they developed for per-vaporation applications.
Cheers,
Trout
Dear Ray,
Getting the whole thing done requires good understanding of input and output of industries, stakeholdership, risk analysis of your maximum costs and business partner matching. You need to identify your input/output boundaries, technical boundaries, cost boundaries, set time frame preferably at 10-15 years longest. You need not worry about political nor social and religious stakeholdership as this is Singapore. You need a financial analyst and a technical process analyst, you are halfway there. Better than silly government expenditure projects that achieve neither political nor economic points. Pragmatic information collection, some common sense analysis and a cooperative team will get you there. You need someone who knows how to manage make the links together with all the specialists. Partnering is not difficult given strong government support that can be garnered. Industrial ecology requires the understanding of cooperation and optimal system size. Too big it dies, too small nothing takes off. While I am not a technical specialist, I know where to identify and look. It is like play Simcity.
Pity this inept govt. always chooses the wrong idiots who only want to enrich themselves behind a desk. Good luck, Ray. Do something useful and hope you succeed. Better than stupid casinos and F1 races.
Just check whether Temasek is doing it. If it is, stay the hell out of it.
Let's chat in private...I'm having a bunch of conversations on this with a bunch of people now.
Cheers,
Trout
Let's chat in private on this...as said, got people interested, but need push.
Cheers,
Trout
temasek is doing something about it. early this year PUB invited a few industry players to consider a jv to set up floating solar farms....they've identified a few bodies of water in sg near industries where solar panels will be installed floating in the water, as the name suggests. However, I understand most did not take up the offer. I don't see why they did not consider the alternative as trout suggests since all the ingredients are there. troutboy do your thing.
also one thing i realize is that as far as solar and renewables are concerned, they are almost always initiated by people whose main drive is the environment, not money. i mean, i have spoken to the guys in this trade (another observation, how come most from nordic countries? maybe there's a link why they're among the happiest ppl on earth)eg the people now setting up the largest PV cells factory in the world in Tuas, entrepreneurs from Iceland and Finland, and you get the impression they really believe in saving the world. However, the americans and others i spoke to sniggers when asked about saving the world.
anyway, good luck guys. btw how much kW is there per m3 or depth of tranch for solar stirling?
everything temasek this and temasek that. When will people try to do it on his own and create out on his own.
We have this guy here thinking if he should start a solar energy plant here and then what is it got to do with temasak, you should go and tell temasak to mind their own bloody business.
This is the intention and idea of the TS to start it, dun bring in temasak in, temasak should go and deal with their own problem of losing 270 billion by their sinkie ceo.
For solar ponds (remember the theoretical conversion efficiency is only 17% max):
Depends on how hot the bottom draw gets, and depends on how cool the top draw stays....
In practice, salt-gradient solar ponds consist of three layers, or zones: a surface convecting zone of low-salinity water, 0.2-0.4 m thick; a non-convecting or salinity-gradient zone beneath the surface zone, in which salt concentration increases with depth, 1.0-1.5 m thick; and a storage zone at the bottom of the pond of uniformly high salt concentration that stores heat and is 1-3 m thick.
So the trench depth is between 2.2m - 4.9m deep, actually depends on how murky your salt water is (the murkier, the deeper required). Can reduce required depth using FO membranes, but still in R&D process.
The largest operating solar pond for electricity generation was the Bet Ha-Arava pond built in Israel. It had an area of 210,000 m² and gave an electrical output of 5 MW. so that works out to be 10.8W/m3 if the trench depth is 2.2m, and 4.86 W/m3 if the trench depth is 4.9m.
As you can see, not very energy intensive, but its safe and it works better than current commercial PV.
Actually, there's a solar technology that is practical on a large scale - use of Thermal Solar Power Towers. You need lots of molten salt, and the best place to do it is in the desert with no rain and minimal cloud cover, so the Americans, Chinese & Arabs sticks it up everyone's ass yet again, since they got the biggest deserts around.
The heat source temperature shoots up to around 800 C (1073 K), and the heat sink temperature assuming 25 C( 298 K), yields a Carnot efficiency of 72%. Currently, practical efficiencies of those towers are around 40-50% using gas turbines, which is nothing to sneeze at as well...
Cheers,
Trout
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