• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Redox Flow Batteries For Electric Cars

GoFlyKiteNow

Alfrescian
Loyal
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
2,605
Points
0
Improved Redox Flow Batteries For Electric Cars

ScienceDaily (Oct. 12, 2009) — A new type of redox flow battery presents a huge advantage for electric cars. If the rechargeable batteries are low, the discharged electrolyte fluid can simply be exchanged at the gas station for recharged fluid – as easy as refilling the petrol tank.

Electric mobility is becoming increasingly important. The German government’s ambitious plan envisages one million electric cars being sold in Germany by the year 2020. Until then, however, researchers still have to overcome some hurdles, such as the question of energy storage. Lithium-ion batteries offer a possible solution, but it takes hours to charge them – time that an automobile driver doesn’t have when on the road.

Researchers from the Fraunhofer Institute for Chemical Technology ICT in Pfinztal near Karlsruhe see an alternative in redox flow batteries. “These batteries are based on fluid electrolytes. They can therefore be recharged at the gas station in a few minutes – the discharged electrolyte is simply pumped out and replaced with recharged fluid,” says engineer Jens Noack from ICT. “The pumped-off electrolyte can be recharged at the gas station, for example, using a wind turbine or solar plant.”

The principle of redox flow batteries is not new – two fluid electrolytes containing metal ions flow through porous graphite felt electrodes, separated by a membrane which allows protons to pass through it. During this exchange of charge a current flows over the electrodes, which can be used by a battery powered device.

Until now, however, redox flow batteries have had the disadvantage of storing significantly less energy than lithium-ion batteries. The vehicles would only be able to cover about a quarter of the normal distance – around 25 kilometers – which means the driver would have to recharge the batteries four times as often. “We can now increase the mileage four or fivefold, to approximately that of lithium-ion batteries,” Noack enthuses.

The researchers have already produced the prototype of a cell. Now they must assemble several cells into a battery and optimize them. This further development is being carried out with colleagues from the University of Applied Sciences, Ostphalia, in Wolfenbüttel and Braunschweig. They are testing electric drives and energy storage units on model vehicles that are only a tenth of the size of normal vehicles. The research team has already built a traditional redox flow battery into a model vehicle. A vehicle on a scale of 1:5 can be seen in action on a test rig set up at the eCarTech in Munich from 13 to 15 October. In the coming year the researchers also want to integrate the new battery, with four times greater mileage, into a model vehicle.
 
Good to have new competiting technology. But in free market, it is often not the best technology that wins but many other factors matter.

Remember the old betamax/vhs fight?

It is about reliability, market share and safety. Most of the EV are moving to lithium ion - Chevy Volt, tesla and even prius. So within a short time, we are going to see lots of miles clocked on lithium ion power packs. Now if a few cars start blowing up or if lithium ion proves to be unreliable then that is it as far as EV use is concerned. But if they prove reliable then more R&D and $$$ will be made in this technology (better power density, smaller, lighter, cheaper) and the technology will move ahead. Once it reaches critical mass, it is difficult for new technology to come in and challenge a proven technology.

BYD is a leader in Lithium Ion and they claimed to have made an EV power pack that can get 80% charge in 15 minutes. These are claims and in real world situation who knows. But one thing is they have lots of real world experience in lithium ion.

However, realize that as BYD starts selling their battery packs and EV, they will gain more knowledge on the technology, they will have the $$$ to reinvest in lithium ion technology and so on. But then Lithium ion might not prove to be suitable for auto applications. If so, BYD will go back to making their cell phone and lap top batteries.

There have been many competing technologies (remember the hydrogen powered BMW 7 series) but Toyota pushed out the Prius. The technology itself was not a big deal. Nothing like the hydrogen powered BMW that produces water from the exhaust (how about the fuel cell vehicles).

Prius is basically combustion engine with electric motor. But because it offered relaibility (even if the battery system fails the reliable 1.4 liter engine can continue on for years if needed). There was easy source of filling stations., the Prius took off. After selling 1.4 million, Toyota is now market leader in hybrid technology. And after 1.4 million cars, Toyota knows quite a bit about battery operating in an EV env. You are faced with wide range of operating temperatures which affect performances, etc etc.


BMW is basically left in the dust with its unwieldy hydrogen car.
 
Last edited:
There are two negatives for using conventional lithium batteries for electric car applications.

One: The estimated world supply of lithium raw material is limited.
Per known reserves, there will not simply be enough lithium raw material
to power even 5 % of present day vehicles running on the road.

Two: The long charging times for Lithium batteries for cars makes
it unattractive..given the mileage per charge is also very very small.

The redox flow technology overcomes these limitations.

Once again this is the proof where leading edge technology economics
triumphs over market cap and volume based economic fundamentals while making existing production facilities and technologies and processes outdated and redundant, however large and well
established they may be.
 
Shortage of Lithium - that was what they said about platinum when cat converters came about. However, advancement in manufacturing process is such that less and less platinum is needed to get the same net effect.

There are bits of gold in circuit boards in our cell phones. Maybe 30 years ago there might have been $10 of gold needed. But because of manufacturing processes you only need 10 cents worth of gold.

Manufacturing efficiency is also why you can now buy a netbook with 150G harddrive for US$200.00.

There maybe other negatives of the lithium battery but shortage of lithium need not be a major disadvantage. I agree with you about short mileage per charge. But who knows about the future. DO you remember when your Motorola brick phone had a talk time of 30 minutes and standby of 5 hours on slim battery (slim battery itself is larger than phones of today).

Today's cell phones have standby time in terms of days and talk time in hours, lifespan of a few years, and no memory effect etc etc. heck the size of the battery is only slightly larger than thumbnail.

So it will be the same for cars. It could be a hybrid form of lithium ion together with sophisticated battery charging (to prelong battery life), higher manufacturing tolerances to allow a smaller battery to put out the same energy.

Just look at development of microchip. Whatever is the future, the lithium ion manufacturers are going to fight tooth and nail to maintain its advantage and as more and more such batteries are used.....

As for making existing technology redundant - the internal combustion engine has been around for the last 100 years. Think about it when they can make a battery that can last 300 miles with half hour recharge time many might go for it. After all after 300 miles of driving, the human body needs half hour for food, drink etc etc etc. Right now they are around 40 miles per charge.


There are two negatives for using conventional lithium batteries for electric car applications.

One: The estimated world supply of lithium raw material is limited.
Per known reserves, there will not simply be enough lithium raw material
to power even 5 % of present day vehicles running on the road.

Two: The long charging times for Lithium batteries for cars makes
it unattractive..given the mileage per charge is also very very small.

The redox flow technology overcomes these limitations.

Once again this is the proof where leading edge technology economics
triumphs over market cap and volume based economic fundamentals while making existing production facilities and technologies and processes outdated and redundant, however large and well
established they may be.
 
Shortage of Lithium - that was what they said about platinum when cat converters came about. However, advancement in manufacturing process is such that less and less platinum is needed to get the same net effect.

There are certain limitations to that argument - it does not apply to all sectors of industrial applications.

For example: no amount of improvements in solar cell technology can produce more than 1 KW of electrical energy from one sq meter of sunlight surface. Right now the industrial average hovers around 12 to 15 % of that.


There are bits of gold in circuit boards in our cell phones. Maybe 30 years ago there might have been $10 of gold needed. But because of manufacturing processes you only need 10 cents worth of gold.

Wrong analogy vis a vis Automobile Lithium storage battery.
One is wt of material used...the other is energy content and density.

Manufacturing efficiency is also why you can now buy a netbook with 150G harddrive for US$200.00.

True..but that extrapolation logic does not apply in this case.

There maybe other negatives of the lithium battery but shortage of lithium need not be a major disadvantage. I agree with you about short mileage per charge. But who knows about the future. DO you remember when your Motorola brick phone had a talk time of 30 minutes and standby of 5 hours on slim battery (slim battery itself is larger than phones of today).

Today's cell phones have standby time in terms of days and talk time in hours, lifespan of a few years, and no memory effect etc etc. heck the size of the battery is only slightly larger than thumbnail.

Here again, the energy density of the battery has not improved much..it is the technology of the cell phone and its effieicnt use of battery energy that provided such long talk times.

So it will be the same for cars. It could be a hybrid form of lithium ion together with sophisticated battery charging (to prelong battery life), higher manufacturing tolerances to allow a smaller battery to put out the same energy.

Just look at development of microchip. Whatever is the future, the lithium ion manufacturers are going to fight tooth and nail to maintain its advantage and as more and more such batteries are used.....

If you read the research news,, the technology is already looking at other alternatives to lithium..such as Hydrogen fuel cells and nanotechnology based membrane battery, etc.

As for making existing technology redundant - the internal combustion engine has been around for the last 100 years. Think about it when they can make a battery that can last 300 miles with half hour recharge time many might go for it. After all after 300 miles of driving, the human body needs half hour for food, drink etc etc etc. Right now they are around 40 miles per charge.

The internal combustion engine is over 100 years old.but it has endured incremental improvements all along these years to increase its efficiency, while Jet engines have also evolved in parallel as efficient prime movers.

This long gestation period was due to lack of environmental pressures all along plus the pricing of cheap oil kept away R n D in alternate engine technology. Things have changed now with developments that will spell the demise of the IC engine itself.
 
Lets not miss the main point about ic engine. 1 gallon of gasoline can easily transport 5 person with luggage from one end of Singapore to the other end in aircond comfort at 80km/h.

Gasoline has a very high energy density of 14 kwh/kilogram
Lead acid battery has 0.04 kwh/kilogram
Lithium Ion battery has 0.187 kwh/kg

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/10/panasonic-20091001.html

That is why ic engines are so popular. Gasoline is very efficient store of energy.

Agree with part about env and costs.


The internal combustion engine is over 100 years old.but it has endured incremental improvements all along these years to increase its efficiency, while Jet engines have also evolved in parallel as efficient prime movers.

This long gestation period was due to lack of environmental pressures all along plus the pricing of cheap oil kept away R n D in alternate engine technology. Things have changed now with developments that will spell the demise of the IC engine itself.
 
Wasn't aware that Betmax was the better technology. Could you elaborate.

Good to have new competiting technology. But in free market, it is often not the best technology that wins but many other factors matter.

Remember the old betamax/vhs fight?
 
Wasn't aware that Betmax was the better technology. Could you elaborate.

One of my favourite business stories

Betamax was better technologically but VHS won the market because they collaborated with the porn industry
 
likewise for LP n CD... then the BlueRay n HD dvd...

all because of porn. *same driving force for the internet n demand for broadband for a long time.

===========================

IC engine ain't very effective in converting all the energy stored in gasoline to movement.... there's lots of heat wastage. and they are only effective at a certain temp, rpm range etc.
 
likewise for LP n CD... then the BlueRay n HD dvd...

all because of porn. *same driving force for the internet n demand for broadband for a long time.

===========================

IC engine ain't very effective in converting all the energy stored in gasoline to movement.... there's lots of heat wastage. and they are only effective at a certain temp, rpm range etc.

Typically 15 % efficiency for petrol IC engines
 
Back
Top