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Investigating the impact of influenza on excess mortality in all ages in Italy during recent seasons

Leongsam

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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971219303285

Investigating the impact of influenza on excess mortality in all ages in Italy during recent seasons (2013/14–2016/17 seasons)
Author links open overlay panelAldoRosanoabAntoninoBellaaFrancescoGesualdocAnnaAcamporadPatrizioPezzottiaStefanoMarchettieWalterRicciardifCaterinaRizzoac
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https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijid.2019.08.003Get rights and content
Under a Creative Commons license
open access

Highlights


In the winter seasons from 2013/14 to 2016/17, an estimated average of 5,290,000 ILI cases occurred in Italy, corresponding to an incidence of 9%.

More than 68,000 deaths attributable to flu epidemics were estimated in the study period.

Italy showed a higher influenza attributable excess mortality compared to other European countries. especially in the elderly.

Abstract
Objectives
In recent years, Italy has been registering peaks in death rates, particularly among the elderly during the winter season. Influenza epidemics have been indicated as one of the potential determinants of such an excess. The objective of our study was to estimate the influenza-attributable contribution to excess mortality during the influenza seasons from 2013/14 to 2016/17 in Italy.
Methods
We used the EuroMomo and the FluMomo methods to estimate the annual trend of influenza-attributable excess death rate by age group. Population data were provided by the National Institute of Statistics, data on influenza like illness and confirmed influenza cases were provided by the National Institutes of Health. As an indicator of weekly influenza activity (IA) we adopted the Goldstein index, which is the product of the percentage of patients seen with influenza-like illness (ILI) and percentage of influenza-positive specimens, in a given week.
Results
We estimated excess deaths of 7,027, 20,259, 15,801 and 24,981 attributable to influenza epidemics in the 2013/14, 2014/15, 2015/16 and 2016/17, respectively, using the Goldstein index. The average annual mortality excess rate per 100,000 ranged from 11.6 to 41.2 with most of the influenza-associated deaths per year registered among the elderly. However children less than 5 years old also reported a relevant influenza attributable excess death rate in the 2014/15 and 2016/17 seasons (1.05/100,000 and 1.54/100,000 respectively).
Conclusions
Over 68,000 deaths were attributable to influenza epidemics in the study period. The observed excess of deaths is not completely unexpected, given the high number of fragile very old subjects living in Italy. In conclusion, the unpredictability of the influenza virus continues to present a major challenge to health professionals and policy makers. Nonetheless, vaccination remains the most effective means for reducing the burden of influenza, and efforts to increase vaccine coverage and the introduction of new vaccine strategies (such as vaccinating healthy children) should be considered to reduce the influenza attributable excess mortality experienced in Italy and in Europe in the last seasons.
Keywords
Flu
Mortality
Italy
Vaccination
Introduction
Seasonal influenza epidemics make a substantial contribution to the worldwide annual mortality rate, in particular among elderly individuals aged 65 years and over. Influenza associated deaths are highly variable by country and season (Iuliano et al., 2018). Factors influencing this variability may include the matching between circulating viruses and viruses included in the seasonal vaccine; environmental temperature; vaccination coverage and population demographics (e.g., the proportion of elderly individuals and/or of individuals with chronic conditions) (Vestergaard et al., 2017, Bonanni et al., 2015, Rizzo, 2015).
During the winter seasons 2014/15 and 2016/17, an excess of all-cause mortality was reported in Europe (Mølbak et al., 2015, Vestergaard et al., 2017). In both seasons, the predominant influenza virus strain circulating in Europe was A/H3N2, which is the strain most commonly associated with influenza mortality in the elderly (Vestergaard et al., 2017, ECDC/WHO, 2017, Rizzo et al., 2007). In Italy, the 2014/15 season was characterized by a co-circulation of A/H1N1pdm09 (52%) and A/H3N2 (41%) strains, while during the 2016/17 season, the A/H3N2 virus predominated (93%) (NIH, 2018).
In recent years, Italy has been registering peaks in death rates, particularly among the elderly during the winter season. A mortality rate of 10.7 per 1,000 inhabitants was observed in the winter season 2014/2015 (more than 375,000 deaths in absolute terms), corresponding to an estimated 54,000 excess deaths (+9.1%) as compared to 2014 (Signorelli and Odone, 2016), representing the highest reported mortality rate since the Second World War in Italy (UN, 2019). Although the above-described excess mortality created concern among researchers, health authorities and public health experts, it has been challenging to identify its determinants (Signorelli and Odone, 2016).
Excess mortality for influenza in Italy in the above mentioned seasons has been previously explored in a multi-country study (Vestergaard et al., 2017, Michelozzi et al., 2016, Cislaghi et al., 2016), analysing mortality data from a limited sample of the Italian population, and in a study focusing on a single Italian region (Fedeli et al., 2017).
The present study aims to investigate the two mortality peaks observed in Italy during 2015 and 2017, using the following data: a) census mortality data from all causes from 2013 to 2017; b) seasonal influenza like-illness surveillance data from 2013/14 to 2016/17 (week 42 to week 17); c) virological surveillance data from 2013/14 to 2016/17 (week 42 to week 17) and d) environmental temperature data for the same years. The final objective was to estimate the influenza-attributable deaths and the contribution of temperature variation to the excess mortality during the above mentioned influenza seasons, using a multiplicative Poisson regression model (EuroMOMO, 2018a).
Methods
Data sources
Deaths
Weekly number of deaths from all causes, by age group (0–4; 5–14; 15–64; 65–74; 75+), relative to the time period 2013–2017, were provided by the Italian National Institute of Statistics (ISTAT) (ISTAT, 2018a). Mortality data were available as weekly aggregated data from 2013 to 2016, and as monthly aggregated data for 2017. Therefore, for 2017, weekly deaths were estimated based on the proportion of weekly deaths, by age and sex, to the months averaged over previous years (2013–2016) in the same period.
Population
The number of deaths were reported, by week of death, as crude observed values and as direct standardized values, using the Italian resident population on 1/1/2014 as a reference. The size of the Italian population by age at the beginning of each year was obtained from ISTAT (ISTAT, 2019).
Influenza activity
Influenza-like illness (ILI) data were provided by the National sentinel influenza surveillance system (InfluNet), which has been in place in Italy since the 1999/2000 influenza season. InfluNet is a network of sentinel practitioners, representative of all Italian regions, based on the voluntary participation of an average 973 general practitioners and family pediatricians per year (range 754–1,055), providing health care to about 2% of the general population. InfluNet is dedicated to monitoring ILI incidence from week 42 to week 17 of each season, to defining the extent of the seasonal epidemics, and to collecting information on circulating strains (Perrotta et al., 2017, Gasparini et al., 2013).
Virological data were obtained from the InfluNet surveillance system. InfluNet is a virological surveillance system, in place since the 1999–2000 season, based on the collection throat swabs from a sample of the sentinel practitioners participating in InfluNet from week 47 to week 17 of each season (NIH, 2019). ILI and virological data were available by ISO week, and are reported weekly during the influenza season by the National Institutes of Health (NIH, 2019).
The sentinel surveillance system was planned to represent the Italian population by Region and by age group. The estimate of the total number of ILI cases in Italy were obtained by weekly ILI incidence, calculated on the population under surveillance, and re-proportioning these to the Italian population (about 60 million).
Environmental temperature
Italian temperature data were extracted from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) database (NOAA, 2019). More than one hundred Italian weather stations contribute to the NOAA database, providing daily average, minimum and maximum temperatures. Overall, Italian daily average, minimum and maximum temperatures were obtained computing the means of daily average, minimum temperatures and maximum temperatures from each weather station, weighted by the populations of the Italian provinces where the stations were located for all of the study period (winter seasons from 2013/14 to 2016/17). Weekly average temperatures as well as weekly minimum and maximum temperatures were obtained calculating the weekly average of daily average, minimum and maximum temperatures. Based on these overall weekly temperatures, we estimated the expected weekly minimum and maximum temperature using a general linear model with a yearly seasonal variation applied to the data of the entire study period. Weeks with extreme temperatures (EC) were defined as weeks with an average temperature above the average of the maximum weekly temperatures or lower than the average of the minimum weekly temperatures. (Nielsen et al., 2018).
Statistical analysis
The number of influenza-attributable deaths was estimated using the FluMOMO algorithm, based on the weekly Influenza Activity (IA) and ET (EuroMOMO, 2018b). For this analysis, we used two IA indicators: 1) the ILI incidence and 2) the Goldstein index (ILI × percentage of positive specimens) (Goldstein et al., 2011). Up to two-weeks-delayed effects of the explanatory variables were considered in the model.
An explanatory factor reflecting the deviation of environmental temperature from the average maximum/minimum temperatures was introduced in the model in order to take into account a potential confounding effect of temperature on influenza excess mortality, as many Italian regions are affected by very cold weather in some winter weeks (e.g. January 2017). Very cold weather is recognized to have a potential impact on the excess mortality from all causes (Nielsen et al., 2011). Therefore, we estimated the influenza-attributable deaths among older adults, adjusting for Extreme Temperatures (ET), defined as weeks with a mean temperature above the average maximum temperature or below the average. Periods with excess cold might be bad in the winter, but in summer, it may have a benign effect and opposite for periods with excess warmth. Therefore, the winter effect of temperature is included with an opposite warm (protective) and cold (harmful) effect.
The method has been described elsewhere (Vestergaard et al., 2017). In brief, we adopted a Poisson regression time-series model with over-dispersion, where the weekly absolute number of deaths from all causes was the outcome variable and IA and ET the explanatory variables. In the results section we reported results including both models with and without the ET effect. We corrected the model by annual trend, and seasonality. Seasonality was expressed as the sum of two sine waves of one year and half year periods, respectively (Nielsen et al., 2018). As the dominant type/subtype of influenza circulating viruses vary from season to season, a separate effect of IA for each season (season: week 42 to week 17 the following year) was used.
Analyses were performed separately for the age groups 0–4, 5–14, 15–64 and 65+ years of age, as well as for all ages. The statistical analysis was performed using STATA version 14 (StataCorp, 2014).
Results
National deaths
A total of 1,457,038 deaths were registered in Italy during the study period. Table 1 provides the absolute number of all-cause deaths, the overall crude mortality rate (per 1,000 inhabitants), the overall standardized mortality rate (per 1,000 inhabitants) and the standardized mortality rate by age group and by season. The number of deaths and the mortality rates from all causes increased by age. The 2014/15 and 2016/17 seasons showed the highest overall crude and standardized mortality rates.
Table 1. Number of all-cause cause-deaths and crude mortality rate (per 1,000 population) by age classes and winter season and standardized mortality rate (reference 2014 Italian population).
Age classes2013/142014/152015/162016/17
N.RateN.RateN.RateN.Rate
0–49420.359230.348480.339480.36
5–142550.042230.042240.042540.04
15–6438,5480.9939,7731.0138 0700.9739,051.00
65–7448,9587.6250,5637.7748 1297.3751,3577.86
75+256,46539.89284,09742.90267 24239.47289,96942.94
Total345,1685.72375,5796.18354 5135.84381,5786.28
Total std345,1685.72366,5076.08340 2265.64366,8596.08
Influenza-like illness and virological surveillance data
During the study period, an average of 5,290,000 (range 4,542,000–6,299,000) ILI cases were estimated in Italy, corresponding to a cumulative average incidence of 9% (range 8%–11%) in the Italian population. The highest estimated incidence was observed in children younger than 5 years (average of 23%, range 21%–26%) and in adolescents (average of 15%, range 12%–18%). The 2014/15 season showed the highest estimated number of cases, with a total of 6,300,000 ILI cases. The lowest number of cases was observed in the 2013/14 season, with 4,540,000 ILI estimated cases (Table 2).
Table 2. Number of estimated ILI cases and specific rate (per 1,000 population) by age classes and winter season and standardized mortality rate (reference 2014 Italian population).
Age classes2013/142014/152015/162016/17
N.RateN.RateN.RateN.Rate
0–4805,386295.6959,993361.9828,763322.1786,421314.4
5–14917,557160.31,313,070229.11,277,345223.71,009,435177.7
15–642,424,76661,73,416,78287.22,343,89860.12,979,70976.6
65+394,29230.3609,15646.1426,99431.9664,43649.1
Total4,542,00074.76,299,000103.64,877,00080.45,440,00089.8
Total std4,542,00074.76,324,948104.14,936,10381.25,526,21690.9
A high circulation of A/H3N2 viruses was observed during all the seasons included in this study, although with a different proportion in each season. In two seasons (2014/15 and 2015/16), a co-circulation of A and B viruses was observed. In particular, during the 2014/15 season, the majority of circulating viruses were A (84%) with a co-circulation of A/H1N1pdm09 (52%) and A/H3N2 (41%). On the other hand, during the 2015/16 season, the majority were B (57%) viruses; among A viruses, the A/H3N2 subtype (56%) was the most frequently isolated, followed by the A/H1N1pdm09 (35%). In general, during all seasons there was a mismatch between the circulating viruses and the strains included in the vaccine (Table 3). The number of ILI cases and the number of positive and negative samples by week are displayed in Figure 1.
 
This was published before the corona virus was even heard of outside of Wuhan. The numbers are pretty huge with almost 25,000 deaths attributable to flu in the 2016/2-17 season.

It's rather heavy reading but those who bother to plough through the raw data will be justly rewarded with a greater insight as to what is going on in the world today ref the politicising of the Wuhan flu.
 
CalmAgileKiwi-size_restricted.gif
 
I'll summarize for you in just four words : Italy is totally fucked.

24,981 deaths in the 2016/2017 season!

Where were all the media reports when this was happening? No outcry about the Italian government doing nothing? Where was CNN? Where are videos of old folks gasping for air and drowing in their own fluids?

This whole corona virus is just a charade. It's clickbait like you have never seen it before and because of that whole countries are going bust.
 
24,981 deaths in the 2016/2017 season!

Where were all the media reports when this was happening? No outcry about the Italian government doing nothing? Where was CNN? Where are videos of old folks gasping for air and drowing in their own fluids?

This whole corona virus is just a charade. It's clickbait like you have never seen it before and because of that whole countries are going bust.

If you look at total deaths "over a period" yes they are similar and the flu is maybe worse.

But the over a period for flu is usually over like several months. People dont present with severe symptoms needing ventilators at around the same time.

But I agree a lot of this covid19 stuff is media driven. I said it before.
 
If you look at total deaths "over a period" yes they are similar and the flu is maybe worse.

But the over a period for flu is usually over like several months. People dont present with severe symptoms needing ventilators at around the same time.

But I agree a lot of this covid19 stuff is media driven. I said it before.


Once the virus is established in the population the deaths from coronavirus will become more spread out and will just become a blip in the statistics of overall pneumonia deaths.

Let the infection follow its natural course. Don't kill economies for nothing. It's very cruel for those who are losing their livelihoods and their life savings. These are not temporary setbacks they could destroy lives and careers for good.
 
Once the virus is established in the population the deaths from coronavirus will become more spread out and will just become a blip in the statistics of overall pneumonia deaths.

Let the infection follow its natural course. Don't kill economies for nothing. It's very cruel for those who are losing their livelihoods and their life savings. These are not temporary setbacks they could destroy lives and careers for good.

I think the biggest blame you can put is the guy who wrote the paper to recommend "flattening the curve"

The option you suggest is to have the hospitals totally overwhelmed and have the doctors and nurses overworked , exposed to the virus, some die, many traumatized forever.

Meanwhile the rest of the world goes about their normal lives. Media keeps quiet. Censor and suppress all attempts by the doctors and nurses to tell the world what is happening at the hospitals.

I see it from a different lens as well.

I agree the shutting down the economy to help healthcare workers is really extreme. However the other option is to basically let your troops fighting the virus go to hell.
 
I think the biggest blame you can put is the guy who wrote the paper to recommend "flattening the curve"

The option you suggest is to have the hospitals totally overwhelmed and have the doctors and nurses overworked , exposed to the virus, some die, many traumatized forever.

Meanwhile the rest of the world goes about their normal lives. Media keeps quiet. Censor and suppress all attempts by the doctors and nurses to tell the world what is happening at the hospitals.

I see it from a different lens as well.

I agree the shutting down the economy to help healthcare workers is really extreme. However the other option is to basically let your troops fighting the virus go to hell.

The efforts should be in ramping up the resources to help the hospital capacity specifically respirators. There should be MORE economic activity not less. In an emergency situation resources need to be diverted to deal with a threat. Good to see that it is already happening.... FINALLY.
 
In order not to overwork the hospitals we put everyone else out of work. What a brilliant solution.

If I was a health worker I'd feel pretty guilty about it once the dust settled and I saw the economic devastation and millions of hardworking, taxpaying individuals in a state of financial ruin and mental trauma that was caused in order not to overwork or traumatize me.
 
The efforts should be in ramping up the resources to help the hospital capacity specifically respirators. There should be MORE economic activity not less. In an emergency situation resources need to be diverted to deal with a threat. Good to see that it is already happening.... FINALLY.

The problem is most governments do NOT want to increase health care spending. Even the people do not want to pay out of pocket. Nobody wants to pay.

Hence you have to wait till the situation is dire before anyway gives a shit.

Ventilators are one thing. What about the manpower? Not every doctor and nurse out there is trained to intubate and operate ventilators.

What about the patients who are waiting for elective procedures? Total knee replacements. Gallbladder removals. You have to cancel. Make space and capacity.

And as you have seen in USA they are calling in the Army to convert buildings into makeshift hospitals.

How do you keep that quiet? And how to do you spin that so people dont get alarmed? Actually you can. By totally not giving a shit about those who get the virus and are likely to die. Just let them die.

We dont hear any problem in North Korea right? Even Russia seems calm.

Yes it is all political. And with politics it depends where you stand. Where you live in society that determines what you will fight for.

As I have said many times. It is very easy for those sleeping in their beds peacefully during the lockdown and saying fuck man it is nothing. Shit so peaceful. Why the fuck are we locking down? Damn I am losing money. My neighbor is losing money. What the fuck are we doing all staying in our homes when we can go out and work and have life as per normal?

Meanwhile at the hospital the doctors and nurses are running around attending to patient collapsing left right centre. Needing intubation. Needing a new IV line. Needing a new ABG reading. Someone needing a central line. Someone needing CPR and crash cart. The phone keeps ringing. The pager keeps going off. There is no time to sleep or eat. The hospital admin says there will be no post calls due to unprecedented circumstances. Fellow doctors and nurses are staying at the hospital instead of going home as they fear spreading the virus to their family. Meanwhile the fucking ambulances are bringing more covid19 cases to the fucking A&E. And we still have those idiots who drive drunk and slammed into oncoming traffic. The heart attacks and the COPD exacerbations, acute asthmatics which we dont know are covid or not. The suicidal patients who have no guts to just go kill themselves but come to the ED to say they want to kill themselves, the idiots who took just enough paracetamol to be dangerous but not kill them needing NAC. The fuckers who got into a fight and need stitching of their scalp lacerations and also so happen to have runny nose ? Covid?

Fuck lah.

You dont realize every night at the ED it is a war zone already. You wanna add a whole load of covid19 patients who are very sick at the same time?

Eh.....even in war.....if the enemy totally outnumbers your force and will overwhelm you you sound the retreat ok? Or you tell the soldiers go out and kill as many and die honorably.

The doctors and nurses certainly dont want to die. And they should not be left to hold the fort all alone meanwhile people get to continue their selfish lives making money and enjoying themselves.

With the fucking lockdown we are ALL in this together. We all suffer together.

As it is the lockdown is to buy time. Time so that more resources can be mobilized to help the doctors and nurses.

We all need to support the healthcare workers. While people worry about money but have really nothing to do those doctors and nurses are really suffering.

So the least you could do is not complain. Otherwise go to the fucking nearest hospital and say you want to volunteer. Go there do what you want. You can kill the patients but do something. Dont just sit behind a computer and complain.

Alternatively be open and say fuck the doctors and nurses lah. They signed up to be healthcare workers. Who asked them to? Too bad so sad.
 
In order not to overwork the hospitals we put everyone else out of work. What a brilliant solution.

If I was a health worker I'd feel pretty guilty about it once the dust settled and I saw the economic devastation and millions of hardworking, taxpaying individuals in a state of financial ruin and mental trauma that was caused in order not to overwork or traumatize me.

You should go volunteer at the nearest hospital.

Point is you are not a health care worker. So you do not know what it is like working on the front lines of a pandemic.

The devastation is not the doing of healthcare workers. It is the fucking virus.

Also blame the politicians. They decided to go this route. The safe route.

Bottom line is lives vs money. Healthcare workers just stuck in between.

Of course you cannot expect doctors to recommend ....let people fucking die lah. It is not possible. No doctor or nurse would professionally recommend that. They cannot. Bound by all those rules the colleges and councils have put in place.

The politicians had to make the call.

People can riot. And they might eventually. Blaming healthcare workers for this economic disaster is absurd.

It is like blaming the soldiers for a war.

What we have is a world war against covid19. Not every country agrees to send the same amount of resources to fight it or fight it in the same way.

In any world war the economic impact is great. This is just a different type of war.

I hope we find a way to treat the patients or that we find that most people already have immunity and we can get back go normal. I bet you all the healthcare workers on the frontlines also want this to end NOW!!

How can you blame healthcare workers? By doing so you imply that they are happy and want all this craziness? No. Far far from it.

As I have mentioned the people themselves can back politicians to say let the fucking covid19 patients die. Tell the doctors and nurses NOT to treat them.

I bet you the healthcare workers will say that is not right but majority will comply with the order to cease and they will heave a Sigh of relief.

But you expect the doctors and nurses to do this on their own? Without political backing? Fantasy thinking.
 
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The problem is most governments do NOT want to increase health care spending. Even the people do not want to pay out of pocket. Nobody wants to pay.

Hence you have to wait till the situation is dire before anyway gives a shit.

Ventilators are one thing. What about the manpower? Not every doctor and nurse out there is trained to intubate and operate ventilators.

What about the patients who are waiting for elective procedures? Total knee replacements. Gallbladder removals. You have to cancel. Make space and capacity.

And as you have seen in USA they are calling in the Army to convert buildings into makeshift hospitals.

How do you keep that quiet? And how to do you spin that so people dont get alarmed? Actually you can. By totally not giving a shit about those who get the virus and are likely to die. Just let them die.

We dont hear any problem in North Korea right? Even Russia seems calm.

Yes it is all political. And with politics it depends where you stand. Where you live in society that determines what you will fight for.

As I have said many times. It is very easy for those sleeping in their beds peacefully during the lockdown and saying fuck man it is nothing. Shit so peaceful. Why the fuck are we locking down? Damn I am losing money. My neighbor is losing money. What the fuck are we doing all staying in our homes when we can go out and work and have life as per normal?

Meanwhile at the hospital the doctors and nurses are running around attending to patient collapsing left right centre. Needing intubation. Needing a new IV line. Needing a new ABG reading. Someone needing a central line. Someone needing CPR and crash cart. The phone keeps ringing. The pager keeps going off. There is no time to sleep or eat. The hospital admin says there will be no post calls due to unprecedented circumstances. Fellow doctors and nurses are staying at the hospital instead of going home as they fear spreading the virus to their family. Meanwhile the fucking ambulances are bringing more covid19 cases to the fucking A&E. And we still have those idiots who drive drunk and slammed into oncoming traffic. The heart attacks and the COPD exacerbations, acute asthmatics which we dont know are covid or not. The suicidal patients who have no guts to just go kill themselves but come to the ED to say they want to kill themselves, the idiots who took just enough paracetamol to be dangerous but not kill them needing NAC. The fuckers who got into a fight and need stitching of their scalp lacerations and also so happen to have runny nose ? Covid?

Fuck lah.

You dont realize every night at the ED it is a war zone already. You wanna add a whole load of covid19 patients who are very sick at the same time?

Eh.....even in war.....if the enemy totally outnumbers your force and will overwhelm you you sound the retreat ok? Or you tell the soldiers go out and kill as many and die honorably.

The doctors and nurses certainly dont want to die. And they should not be left to hold the fort all alone meanwhile people get to continue their selfish lives making money and enjoying themselves.

With the fucking lockdown we are ALL in this together. We all suffer together.

As it is the lockdown is to buy time. Time so that more resources can be mobilized to help the doctors and nurses.

We all need to support the healthcare workers. While people worry about money but have really nothing to do those doctors and nurses are really suffering.

So the least you could do is not complain. Otherwise go to the fucking nearest hospital and say you want to volunteer. Go there do what you want. You can kill the patients but do something. Dont just sit behind a computer and complain.

Alternatively be open and say fuck the doctors and nurses lah. They signed up to be healthcare workers. Who asked them to? Too bad so sad.

You're a doctor so you're responding as someone who has been in the trenches. I have been in the trenches of those who have lost all hope because they are broke through no fault of their own.

You may not have seen what it is like to stare into the abyss of financial ruin. I have. It is a lot worse than a doctor's bad day at the office.
 
You're a doctor so you're responding as someone who has been in the trenches. I have been in the trenches of those who have lost all hope because they are broke through no fault of their own.

You may not have seen what it is like to stare into the abyss of financial ruin. I have. It is a lot worse than a doctor's bad day at the office.

The frontline doctors are not working in an office.

Remember too as a worker you could contract the virus and die. There are doctors in their 50s and 60s too.

Financial ruin? As I have said you can come back from it. Governments can help.

Do you honestly believe that from this economic disaster there is no way back for the world?

This is it? The end of civilization?

Come on.

People still go to the grocery store to buy food. There is running water. Electricity.

Governments are ordering no evictions. Delayed rent payment. Delayed mortgage payments.

Those who want to complain, go to your nearest hospital and volunteer. Or even just go see how busy they are. Have a tour of the battlefield.

Then decide if you want to blame the frontline soldiers for all of this.

Everyone wants this to end. Now.

We can end it. As I have said. Make the decision to stop lockdown and tell everyone to go back to work and life AND tell the healthcare workers to forget about the flattening the curve.

If the ventilators are all used then too bad. Forget it. Setup places for people to die. Emergency euthanasia even. If you have covid19 and your O2 sat drops below 90% we will give you lethal injection and die.

Those of you who want things to go back to "normal" but would not do anything to make hospitals go back to normal that's simply ignorance and negligence.

We ALL go back to normal. You have covid19 and got very sick? Sorry means you gonna die.

Remember most have mild symptoms.

What many are suggesting is a cop out. Ok economy back go normal. Meanwhile I want the fucking doctors to try and save every single one who needs saving ok? Dont stop.
 
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The frontline doctors are not working in an office.

Remember too as a worker you could contract the virus and die. There are doctors in their 50s and 60s too.

Financial ruin? As I have said you can come back from it. Governments can help.

Do you honestly believe that from this economic disaster there is no way back for the world?

This is it? The end of civilization?

Come on.

People still go to the grocery store to buy food. There is running water. Electricity.

Governments are ordering no evictions. Delayed rent payment. Delayed mortgage payments.

Those who want to complain, go to your nearest hospital and volunteer. Or even just go see how busy they are. Have a tour of the battlefield.

Then decide if you want to blame the frontline soldiers for all of this.

Doctors who are afraid of catching something should become plastic surgeons or psychiatrists. Policemen end up dead too. So do astronauts. Some professions carry a higher risk while others are lower eg accountant.
 
Doctors who are afraid of catching something should become plastic surgeons or psychiatrists. Policemen end up dead too. So do astronauts. Some professions carry a higher risk while others are lower eg accountant.

Same goes for people who want to invest in stocks should be aware of stock market crashes. People who invest in property should be prepared for tenants who dont pay rent.

People who choose to be employees should be prepared to be laid off.

The doctors are doing the best they can. As I said the frontline doctors did NOT decide on lockdown. They just said this is what is going to happen if we dont do anything to slow the rate of infection. What do you want us to do if we are overwhelmed? Mass casualty triage?

The politicians decided to lockdown.

If a tsunami is coming what do you do? Sound the alarm and everyone leaves their homes to higher ground? Or just let things go as per normal. There might not be a tsunami. I dont see it. Do you?

Or earthquake warning? Evacuate? Or just forget it.

These events happen one time. They dont propagate.

We should be thankful this isn't a huge earthquake. Or a asteroid collision event.

When it is over we can go back to normal pretty damn fast.
 
PS: Just providing a contrary viewpoint I have deep respect for doctors who choose to work in the trenches and not in the boutiques. Most of them truly want to help people and get great satisfaction from doing so. The boutique doctors get their satisfaction from their Ferraris and Lambos.

Discussion closed for the night. I'm going to bed because I'm tired after a 3.5 hour bike ride.
 
PS: Just providing a contrary viewpoint I have deep respect for doctors who choose to work in the trenches and not in the boutiques. Most of them truly want to help people and get great satisfaction from doing so. The boutique doctors get their satisfaction from their Ferraris and Lambos.

Thanks Sam.

I am not a frontline doctor. Not anymore. But I have been there. And I was there during SARS.

I can tell you you do think could I die? I remember I looked at my wife and my 2 year old daughter and 1 year old son and wondered fuck man. I wanted to be orthopedic surgeon. But work in hospital. Hospital got SARS patients. I could catch this and die. At age 29. I went out to buy more life insurance. But still have to go to work.

The doctors and nurses on the frontlines now are probably feeling the same. Only this time there are way more virus patients.

The least we could do is not blame them for the economic crisis.

Oh and those boutique doctors. They are not blaming or complaining because they know they are lucky not to have to be on the frontline. That alone is priceless!
 
The doctors are doing the best they can. As I said the frontline doctors did NOT decide on lockdown. They just said this is what is going to happen if we dont do anything to slow the rate of infection. What do you want us to do if we are overwhelmed? Mass casualty triage?
KNN even before covid19 my uncle discovered in sg (public hospital - subsidized peasant) triage was already happening and interestingly it is not due to insufficient resources but due to laziness of staff members KNN eg when loctor or admission cust svc tells you not enough beds or have to either wait very long or discharge is an option etc the actual thing that was happening in the background can be shocking KNN I.e the ward nurses or bed mgt coordinator or maybe the approval etc was either too busy or lazy to process the logistics but actually there were many empty beds when my uncle did the verification walkabout spot checks KNN
 
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