I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representation

[Sideswipe]

I am actually fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding. Everyone will do it. If WP or SDP become the govt. LTK or CSJ will also gerrymandered the districts boundaries to their preferences.

But what I want is Proportional Representation / a second vote for favored political party apart from constituency vote.

PR will reflect clearly the political landscape of the country and it stand for every vote counts, no wasted vote. + everyone in singapore will have the chance to vote this way.

my ideal election method
- 45% of seats by constituency single winner method
- 45% of seats by PR - second vote for favored political party
- 10% of seats to be reserved for minorities candidates.

SMC or GRC doesn't matter to me if PR is introduced.

 

[scroobal]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

I am actually fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding. Everyone will do it. If WP or SDP become the govt. LTK or CSJ will also gerrymandered the districts boundaries to their preferences.

But what I want is Proportional Representation / a second vote for favored political party apart from constituency vote.

Not sure if you understand how proportional rep works or the intention behind it but it will not work in Singapore mathematically. It works best where there are strong minor parties in existence in the first place.

Give you an example.

There are 1 major party that is right while there are 2 minor parties that are left. Vote spliting tends to occur in the left parties but in the main voters are left leaning.

Party A Right - 48%
Party B Left - 35%
Party C Left - 20%

In the above case, 55% of the voters are left leaning and its only fair that a left leaning party wins

After preference votes, Party B will win. Do we have 2 minor parties that together can outstrip Party A. Thats the reason why opposition parties in Singapore come to a consensus to avoid splitting votes and do not ask for a proportional representation system. You must be confident that you have numbers behind you.

There are variations of course.

 

[Sideswipe]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

my reasons for wanting proportional representation is NOT from a PAP or Opposition perceptive.

It doesn't matter if PAP or WP or a Single Oppositions Entry win the majority of PR seats. PR willl give u the closest match between the percentage of votes that groups of candidates obtain in elections and the percentage of seats they receive (usually in legislative assemblies).

"single winner district" method often result in imbalanced results.
( In ROC, the chinese nationalist party in 2008 win 80% single district seats with 50% nationwide votes, DPP gained 20% of seats with 42% votes )
( In Britain, Labour or Conservative party always won control of parliament as a single party with 40%+ nationwide votes and 50%+ seats )

single winner district must be combined with PR to have a balanced election results that reflect the political landscape of the country.

Benefits of PR
1) Reduce the effects of Gerrymandering
2) No Wasted Votes - ( every votes count )
3) parties must take more interest in the views of all voters to win more seats
4) Voters have more choices - ( u can chose a PAP MP for your constituency and a WP MP for the PR favored political party list.

I know why PAP don't want PR but I don't understand why our oppositions don't demand for PR.

I believe that even in the case of SDP, they got 5% of nationwide votes in last GE. If they can get 5% in PR, they deserve a seat in parliament too. ( 5% of peasants want a SDP MP in parliament ) How matter how little, every vote must count and not be wasted.

 

[scroobal]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

my reasons for wanting proportional representation is NOT from a PAP or Opposition perceptive.

It doesn't matter if PAP or WP or a Single Oppositions Entry win the majority of PR seats. PR willl give u the closest match between the percentage of votes that groups of candidates obtain in elections and the percentage of seats they receive (usually in legislative assemblies).

"single winner district" method often result in imbalanced results.
( In ROC, the chinese nationalist party in 2008 win 80% single district seats with 50% nationwide votes, DPP gained 20% of seats with 42% votes )
( In Britain, Labour or Conservative party always won control of parliament as a single party with 40%+ nationwide votes and 50%+ seats )

In that case, the solution is a bicameral parliament where proportional seats are reflected in the upper house. The Lower house must be given seats to the clear winner. Singapore fortunately or unfortunately is unicameral. Based on the voting trends we will end with a dud upper house with PAP cronies as senators drawing exhorbitant pay. Another layer of snouts in the pigs trough.

Proportional Rep works best when there are 2 major parties or at least minor parties with sizeable following. Looking at the voting trend, we will be feeding the PAP cronies as they have abused the system that anyone or any party with potential large following have and will be demolished.

Bicameral is best where a federal system exist or where particulat state or province assets and customs are protected.

Nevertheless its good to explore ways that our people can be best represented and the hurdles/obstacles cleared or removed.

 

[Sideswipe]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

scroobal, I think it's interesting that u think any sort of PR votings is not needed in Singapore.

taking aside GRC vs SMC
do you think "single winner district" election with no modifications is the best for singapore elections?

 

[scroobal]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

scroobal, I think it's interesting that u think any sort of PR votings is not needed in Singapore.

taking aside GRC vs SMC
do you think "single winner district" election with no modifications is the best for singapore elections?

Certainly not with current voting trend. We will be paying 2 sets of legislative bodies for the same results instead of one. Mathematically you can do the sums. Thats probably the reason why opposition are not calling for it.

Here is another example

82 seats in lower house won by PAP MPs and by coincincidence, they all won by 51% of votes each. So there will be 82 PAP MPs.

If we have an upper house to reflect proportional Rep, then there will be 42 seats for PAP and 40 seats for Opposition in view of 49% of the votes. There are no balance of power issue and it will be a rubber stamp. So end up paying an addtional of bills for a useless body.

The trick is not proportional rep but increasing the opposition votes where a 2party system emerges and it becomes self checking mechanism.

In essence, there are bigger fish to fry.

I suspect you are not familiar with the practical aspects of proportional Rep. Many years ago, Senator Brian Harradine of Tasmania held the balance of power in the senate and cut deals to vote thru bills. He always made sure that Tasmania was looked after. In the end, Tasmania as the least populated state ended holding the rest of country ransom and getting a large share of the pie. In this case, proportional rep back fired deven thought he was nice man.

Ideally proportional rep is desired but the numbers must be there.

 

[Sideswipe]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

Certainly not with current voting trend. We will be paying 2 sets of legislative bodies for the same results instead of one. Mathematically you can do the sums. Thats probably the reason why opposition are not calling for it.

must there be a uper and lower house in the first place?

Republic of China has a parliament with 1 legislative body based on single winner district ( 75% ) + PR - favored political party vote ( 25% ) copied from Japan parliamentary elections ( uper and lower house ) and they modified it to suit their needs.

as previously mentioned. we have one legislative body. 50% by single winner district. 50% by PR.

I don't see the need for two chambers of parliament at all.

 

[NissanViP]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

I am actually fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding. Everyone will do it. If WP or SDP become the govt. LTK or CSJ will also gerrymandered the districts boundaries to their preferences.

.

It doesnt matter who is governing the Singapore State. PAP is the government and vice-versa as per LKY fucker said so.

So long any government put citizen interest first, nothing else's matter.

While check and balance in the govt administration must exist altogether.

 

[ahbengsong]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

the pap follows the british system but bastardised it with all sorts of gerrymanderng like the nominated MP...

 

[kiwibird7]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

I am actually fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding. Everyone will do it. If WP or SDP become the govt. LTK or CSJ will also gerrymandered the districts boundaries to their preferences.

But what I want is Proportional Representation / a second vote for favored political party apart from constituency vote.

PR will reflect clearly the political landscape of the country and it stand for every vote counts, no wasted vote. + everyone in singapore will have the chance to vote this way.

my ideal election method
- 45% of seats by constituency single winner method
- 45% of seats by PR - second vote for favored political party
- 10% of seats to be reserved for minorities candidates.

SMC or GRC doesn't matter to me if PR is introduced.

What you have suggested above is NOT NEW.

A Proportionate Representation Election system known as MMR (has already be tried and tested in the NZ election eversince 1996. NZ election system also has seats reserved for the minority candidates (known as the Maori seats contested under the Maori Roll)

http://www.elections.org.nz/voting/mmp/two-ticks-too-easy.html

Under NZ MMR system, the opposition MPs sitting in S'pore's Parliament would consists of Chiam ST and Low TK plus members from the opposition party's list (ranked) so that 33.3% of the seats in SG Parliament are NOT from PAP.

 

[scroobal]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

must there be a uper and lower house in the first place?

No need for 2 houses but it still means more MPs. I think you mean the MMP system which both Taiwan and NZ has. UK uses its for Greater London and the scottish parliament.

I just don't know how it will help the Singapore cause.

My first objective would be to secure a 2 party system to provide alternatives and not allow a single party to hold us to ransom or dominate legislature. MMP will do little in my view to change that. Seems very idealistic at this stage. I could be wrong.

 

[kakowi]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

my reasons for wanting proportional representation is NOT from a PAP or Opposition perceptive.

So long as there is a checks and balance in place, Singaporeans will be safe compared to absolute dominance by the PAP or any opposition party.

Thus bringing back the one seat one MP type of election is a fairer deal than the present. And a two-month election campaigning period where the track record of the ruling party as well as the proposals of the opposition parties will be minutely examined.

.....

For me, what i want is that any law made in Parliament will be subjected to a national referendum if the electorate submitted 100,000 signatures of 'no-confidence' in that law.

Garnering 100,000 votes is very difficult in Singapore even if there is public sentiment in favour of that issue. So this will prevent frivolous petitions.

This will make the public largely independent of the antics of any politician in power.

 

[kakowi]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

...

http://www.elections.org.nz/voting/mmp/two-ticks-too-easy.html

Under NZ MMR system, ...33.3% of the seats in SG Parliament are NOT from PAP.

If that is what proportional representation is about, then it is easy to create a better, hardworking and humbler PAP with this system.

So that their Party Actions will be for the People.

 

[scroobal]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

If that is what proportional representation is about, then it is easy to create a better, hardworking and humbler PAP with this system.

So that their Party Actions will be for the People.

He got the sums wrong. In an MMP system, there are 2 sets of votes.

1) Party List for proportional rep
2) Electorate - first past the post

As Singapore does not have a 2 vote system, I will use the 2006 GE results and the NZ model where 70 seats are electorate and 50 are proportional.

It will be as follows

Electorate
68 - PAP
2 opposition

Proportional
33 seats PAP
8 seats WP
6 seats SDA

Total

101 seats PAP
14 seats Opposition. 12% of seats.

What has happenned is that the number of seats has increased but the balance of power has not been affected. The move to an MMP models emerges when no one party has a dominating role and tends to rely on lesser parties to form a coalition. The lesser parties tend to be brides in waiting for a major player.

Anyway no single party dominated system will allow a proportional rep or any other system that affects it dominance and its pretty much a moot point and wishful thinking. The effort and focus must be on destroying the dominance of a single party.

 

[kakowi]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

...

Anyway no single party dominated system will allow a proportional rep or any other system that affects it dominance and its pretty much a moot point and wishful thinking. The effort and focus must be on destroying the dominance of a single party.

I can't agree more.


As for "The effort and focus must be on destroying the dominance of a single party", the question is as always how?

And i feel that answering that 'how' or even attempting to achieve an answer is more fruitful than asking the PAP to accede 33% of the seats at a stroke of a pen.

 

[Sideswipe]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

I just don't know how it will help the Singapore cause.

My first objective would be to secure a 2 party system to provide alternatives and not allow a single party to hold us to ransom or dominate legislature. MMP will do little in my view to change that. Seems very idealistic at this stage. I could be wrong.

MMP will not end 1 party system or start 2 party system. It will however reduce the effects of gerrymanding, inbalanced plurality voting system, and close match between percentage of votes and seats.

PAP will not allow MMP or any election system that will automatically cause them to lose a few seats. I'm just surprised and disappointed that the oppositions doesn't seem interested in PR and hasn't demanded for PR method in GE even though PAP will reject the demands.

 

[leetahbar]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

I am actually fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding. Everyone will do it. If WP or SDP become the govt. LTK or CSJ will also gerrymandered the districts boundaries to their preferences.

But what I want is Proportional Representation / a second vote for favored political party apart from constituency vote.

PR will reflect clearly the political landscape of the country and it stand for every vote counts, no wasted vote. + everyone in singapore will have the chance to vote this way.

my ideal election method
- 45% of seats by constituency single winner method
- 45% of seats by PR - second vote for favored political party
- 10% of seats to be reserved for minorities candidates.

SMC or GRC doesn't matter to me if PR is introduced.

sdp the greatest loser in every GE after chiam see tong shall not fail to cook up another new version of their failure in the next GE. just we wait and see.

chee's principle of losing GE is because his undies is too large and not his ball too small. it causes him to sink instead of swim. blame it on his undies. as usual - what u expect from loser like him?

i bet he would use FEAR as the next reason. he sees the most ghosts and spirits when he loses. that's his FEAR he's trying to implement into peasants' mind for the reason of not voting him.

 

[scroobal]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

MMP will not end 1 party system or start 2 party system. It will however reduce the effects of gerrymanding, inbalanced plurality voting system, and close match between percentage of votes and seats.

Whose is going to make those changes - the PAP? Why would the PAP vote for a system that will stop them gerrymandering etc.

One possibility is for the opposition to raise this as an items at the next GE. It will harness them votes. Play on the fact that 1/3rd of the country is not represented and that the PAP is railroading them. In this case MMP is the means to an end (more opposition seats in parliament and more opposition votes).

 

[guavatree]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

sdp the greatest loser in every GE after chiam see tong shall not fail to cook up another new version of their failure in the next GE. just we wait and see.

old fart faggot fake monk PAP dog Bob Sim Kheng Hwee,

temple thief, swindler, fraudster, cheat, con-artist, liar, hypocrite, deceiver, all rolled into one!

you're not only a cyber-prostitute but a rabid barking PAP dog!

all because of your PERSONAL VENDETTA!!!

ya diabetic bapok with kaput kidneys up lorry soon!

wait and see!

LOL

 

[flkyflky]

Re: I am fine with PAP constituencies gerrymanding but want proportional representati

I am fine with PAP

You meant PAP govt made you paid $$FINE$$ right?