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HDB flat pricing scam!!!

makapaaa

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
<TABLE id=msgUN cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD id=msgUNsubj vAlign=top>Coffeeshop Chit Chat - HDB flat pricing scam!!!</TD><TD id=msgunetc noWrap align=right>
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Subscribe </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=msgtable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="96%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=msg vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgbfr1 width="1%"> </TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgF noWrap align=right width="1%">From: </TD><TD class=msgFname noWrap width="68%">rainnix <NOBR></NOBR> </TD><TD class=msgDate noWrap align=right width="30%">Nov-13 9:46 am </TD></TR><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgT noWrap align=right width="1%" height=20>To: </TD><TD class=msgTname noWrap width="68%">ALL <NOBR></NOBR></TD><TD class=msgNum noWrap align=right> (1 of 3) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgleft width="1%" rowSpan=4> </TD><TD class=wintiny noWrap align=right>2498.1 </TD></TR><TR><TD height=8></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgtxt>Helping to spread the message here.
Note for readers:
1 Reproduced below is the full text of my letter to TODAY Voices section --- which was rejected(read: censored) for publication for the obvious reason that I had exposed "The HDB Flat Pricing Scam" (which not many S'poreans are aware of).
2 Key Issue --- The HDB (under $2m Minister Mah Bow Tan) had used the clever term "market subsidy" to confuse buyers of HDB new flats into thinking their flats are "heavily subsidized" (Mah's own words) by the PAP Govt.
In fact, there is no "cash subsidy" at all and the HDB is actually raking in a cleverly-disguised profit !
3 For greater public awareness, please help to forward to as many people as possible and ask them to do likewise (for "the multiplier effect").
More informed voters can then vote appropriately at the next 2011 General Elections to send a strong message to the PAP Govt to provide truly-affordable housing for the people.
Original Text of my email letter to TODAY newspaper:
In his letter "Resale flats out of reach" (TODAY Jan 17), Mr Anthony Tan highlighted the problems faced by many first-time HDB flat-buyers. Allow me to trace the root cause behind their dilemma.
As a 60-year old educated Senior Citizen, I surf the Internet regularly to gauge the true concerns of young Singaporeans, who are mostly hesitant to speak up openly.
I empathise with their growing despair on home ownership. Many are resigned that private flats are now way beyond their reach. All they simply want is a basic no-frills inexpensive flat --- with enough money left to decorate it to their own personal taste into a cosy home!
However, even with HDB flats, they are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea --- either wait 4 years for "expensive" new flats or else pay "sky-high" prices for resale flats. They are rightly concerned that a $1 million HDB resale flat may not be that far-fetched.
One worry is that, despite such high prices, few buyers will feel the pinch immediately because up to 90% of the cost can be financed by long-term home loans stretching up to 30 years.
So many seldom give a second thought that if they borrow, say, $300,000 under a 30-year loan, they could ultimately cough up nearly $600,000 in total capital and interest repayments.
Another worry: If a young couple have to sink so much of their hard-earned income and CPF savings into their brick-and-cement flat, how much monies will there be left to raise a family and sent their children to university --- not to mention providing for their own healthcare and retirement needs in their golden years?
In the 1970s, the starting graduate salary was $1000 per month. Then, in the HDB Marine Parade Estate, prices of new 5-rm, 4-rm and 3-rm flats were $35,000, $20,000 and $17,000 respectively. In 1990, average price of new 5-rm flats was $70,000. Such prices then reflected a "cost-based pricing approach".
Now, starting graduate salary is 3 times higher at $3,000 per month but prices of similar HDB new flats have gone up by 10 times to 30 times. The massive price hikes were largely the result of the HDB switching over to a "market-based pricing approach".
Since 2002, many have queried the HDB in newspaper forums on how its new flats are actually priced. Last December, the HDB finally confirmed that "the prices of new HDB flats are based on the market prices of resale HDB flats, and not their costs of construction."
This is a simple-to-understand example using data from 2000, when 5-rm new flats were priced upwards of $200,000.
However, from actual tendered contracts of HDB Building Contractors, the Construction Cost per flat was about $50,000. Adding on an estimated $70,000 for Land Cost & Other Related Costs, the Total Breakeven Cost per flat was about $120,000 --- which HDB should set as the selling price, since it is supposed to be a not-for-profit, low-cost public housing developer.
But, under the market-based pricing approach, HDB will first look at the then prevailing market price of, say $260,000 of a 5-rm resale flat. It will then pick a lower figure of, say $200,000 as the selling price for the 5-rm new flat --- never mind if its actual Total Breakeven Cost was only $120,000.
The HDB can then say the new flat buyer is getting a "market subsidy" of $60,000 arising from the difference between the resale flat price and new flat price. Notice, under such an approach, there is absolutely no "cash subsidy" granted at all to the new flat buyer. Instead, the HDB is actually collecting a profit of $80,000 per flat (representing a 67% profit margin). In contrast, private developers normally earn around 20% profit margin for assuming business risks.
Most importantly, this HDB market-based pricing approach had resulted in new flat prices and resale flat prices chasing each other in an upward spiral ---- that is financially disadvantageous to buyers of both new and resale flats.
Should HDB deem the above example as simplistic or misleading, the onus lies with it to rebut and substantiate with its own detailed data.
HDB should also provide its public response to this remaining burning question --- Why is the HDB not really helping first-time buyers of new flats by passing on to them the substantial cost-savings from economies-of-scale in massive HDB developments through pricing new flats on a "cost-based break-even" approach?
We have also since moved from small "pigeon-holes" to tiny "bee-hives" --- extremely costly beehives, to be precise! HDB new flats are now built smaller, closer and at higher price.
The HDB itself had stopped building the larger 1200 sq ft 5-room and 1400 sq ft Executive flats. Current prices of 1000 sq ft 4-rm HDB new flats range from $200,000 (in Senkang) to $400,000 (in Telok Blangah) and up to the whopping $590,000 (in Boon Keng, under Design, Build and Sell Scheme by private developer).
Our politicians constantly exhort Singaporeans to treat Singapore as "home" literally and figuratively. To help solve our Procreation Problem, young couples are also reminded not to delay marriage and have three or more children. Pray tell us how do you squeeze two parents, three children, one maid and possibly one or two elderly in-laws in a 1000 sq ft "bee-hive"?
When young, educated and mobile Singaporeans are short-changed on such basic "quality of life" aspirations as a truly-affordable and decent-size home for their loved ones, is it any wonder many are contemplating to be "quitters" rather than "stayers"?
__________________
www.kelvinseet.com
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 

ahbengsong

Alfrescian
Loyal
hdb market subsidy is a fake... only singaporeans are stupid enough to believe its a cash subsidy by pap propaganda machinery...

its the same half-truth of the term 'singaporean' used by pap to justify its claim that 3 out of 4 new jobs go to 'singaporeans' when most such people are PRs...

the simple truth.. how can singaporeans believe the pap when it keep telling half-truths ???.. is this only the tip of the iceberg ??.. is there something more skeletons which the pap is not telling ???
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
Reduce the price for the small percentage of ungrateful Singaporeans demanding cheap flats, and reduce the resale price for the 95% of the Singaporeans who already own flats who either want to upgrade or downgrade? You think the government is stupid or what?

Like an MP from your beloved reCHEEme of the MONGREL who bit his masters' hands LOUDHAILER chee soon juan said: Don't talk cock!



<TABLE id=msgUN cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD id=msgUNsubj vAlign=top>Coffeeshop Chit Chat - HDB flat pricing scam!!!</TD><TD id=msgunetc noWrap align=right>
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Subscribe </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=msgtable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="96%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=msg vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgbfr1 width="1%"></TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgF noWrap align=right width="1%">From: </TD><TD class=msgFname noWrap width="68%">rainnix <NOBR></NOBR></TD><TD class=msgDate noWrap align=right width="30%">Nov-13 9:46 am </TD></TR><TR class=msghead><TD class=msgT noWrap align=right width="1%" height=20>To: </TD><TD class=msgTname noWrap width="68%">ALL <NOBR></NOBR></TD><TD class=msgNum noWrap align=right>(1 of 3) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgleft width="1%" rowSpan=4>

</TD><TD class=wintiny noWrap align=right>2498.1 </TD></TR><TR><TD height=8></TD></TR><TR><TD class=msgtxt>Helping to spread the message here.
Note for readers:
1 Reproduced below is the full text of my letter to TODAY Voices section --- which was rejected(read: censored) for publication for the obvious reason that I had exposed "The HDB Flat Pricing Scam" (which not many S'poreans are aware of).
2 Key Issue --- The HDB (under $2m Minister Mah Bow Tan) had used the clever term "market subsidy" to confuse buyers of HDB new flats into thinking their flats are "heavily subsidized" (Mah's own words) by the PAP Govt.
In fact, there is no "cash subsidy" at all and the HDB is actually raking in a cleverly-disguised profit !
3 For greater public awareness, please help to forward to as many people as possible and ask them to do likewise (for "the multiplier effect").
More informed voters can then vote appropriately at the next 2011 General Elections to send a strong message to the PAP Govt to provide truly-affordable housing for the people.
Original Text of my email letter to TODAY newspaper:
In his letter "Resale flats out of reach" (TODAY Jan 17), Mr Anthony Tan highlighted the problems faced by many first-time HDB flat-buyers. Allow me to trace the root cause behind their dilemma.
As a 60-year old educated Senior Citizen, I surf the Internet regularly to gauge the true concerns of young Singaporeans, who are mostly hesitant to speak up openly.
I empathise with their growing despair on home ownership. Many are resigned that private flats are now way beyond their reach. All they simply want is a basic no-frills inexpensive flat --- with enough money left to decorate it to their own personal taste into a cosy home!
However, even with HDB flats, they are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea --- either wait 4 years for "expensive" new flats or else pay "sky-high" prices for resale flats. They are rightly concerned that a $1 million HDB resale flat may not be that far-fetched.
One worry is that, despite such high prices, few buyers will feel the pinch immediately because up to 90% of the cost can be financed by long-term home loans stretching up to 30 years.
So many seldom give a second thought that if they borrow, say, $300,000 under a 30-year loan, they could ultimately cough up nearly $600,000 in total capital and interest repayments.
Another worry: If a young couple have to sink so much of their hard-earned income and CPF savings into their brick-and-cement flat, how much monies will there be left to raise a family and sent their children to university --- not to mention providing for their own healthcare and retirement needs in their golden years?
In the 1970s, the starting graduate salary was $1000 per month. Then, in the HDB Marine Parade Estate, prices of new 5-rm, 4-rm and 3-rm flats were $35,000, $20,000 and $17,000 respectively. In 1990, average price of new 5-rm flats was $70,000. Such prices then reflected a "cost-based pricing approach".
Now, starting graduate salary is 3 times higher at $3,000 per month but prices of similar HDB new flats have gone up by 10 times to 30 times. The massive price hikes were largely the result of the HDB switching over to a "market-based pricing approach".
Since 2002, many have queried the HDB in newspaper forums on how its new flats are actually priced. Last December, the HDB finally confirmed that "the prices of new HDB flats are based on the market prices of resale HDB flats, and not their costs of construction."
This is a simple-to-understand example using data from 2000, when 5-rm new flats were priced upwards of $200,000.
However, from actual tendered contracts of HDB Building Contractors, the Construction Cost per flat was about $50,000. Adding on an estimated $70,000 for Land Cost & Other Related Costs, the Total Breakeven Cost per flat was about $120,000 --- which HDB should set as the selling price, since it is supposed to be a not-for-profit, low-cost public housing developer.
But, under the market-based pricing approach, HDB will first look at the then prevailing market price of, say $260,000 of a 5-rm resale flat. It will then pick a lower figure of, say $200,000 as the selling price for the 5-rm new flat --- never mind if its actual Total Breakeven Cost was only $120,000.
The HDB can then say the new flat buyer is getting a "market subsidy" of $60,000 arising from the difference between the resale flat price and new flat price. Notice, under such an approach, there is absolutely no "cash subsidy" granted at all to the new flat buyer. Instead, the HDB is actually collecting a profit of $80,000 per flat (representing a 67% profit margin). In contrast, private developers normally earn around 20% profit margin for assuming business risks.
Most importantly, this HDB market-based pricing approach had resulted in new flat prices and resale flat prices chasing each other in an upward spiral ---- that is financially disadvantageous to buyers of both new and resale flats.
Should HDB deem the above example as simplistic or misleading, the onus lies with it to rebut and substantiate with its own detailed data.
HDB should also provide its public response to this remaining burning question --- Why is the HDB not really helping first-time buyers of new flats by passing on to them the substantial cost-savings from economies-of-scale in massive HDB developments through pricing new flats on a "cost-based break-even" approach?
We have also since moved from small "pigeon-holes" to tiny "bee-hives" --- extremely costly beehives, to be precise! HDB new flats are now built smaller, closer and at higher price.
The HDB itself had stopped building the larger 1200 sq ft 5-room and 1400 sq ft Executive flats. Current prices of 1000 sq ft 4-rm HDB new flats range from $200,000 (in Senkang) to $400,000 (in Telok Blangah) and up to the whopping $590,000 (in Boon Keng, under Design, Build and Sell Scheme by private developer).
Our politicians constantly exhort Singaporeans to treat Singapore as "home" literally and figuratively. To help solve our Procreation Problem, young couples are also reminded not to delay marriage and have three or more children. Pray tell us how do you squeeze two parents, three children, one maid and possibly one or two elderly in-laws in a 1000 sq ft "bee-hive"?
When young, educated and mobile Singaporeans are short-changed on such basic "quality of life" aspirations as a truly-affordable and decent-size home for their loved ones, is it any wonder many are contemplating to be "quitters" rather than "stayers"?
__________________
www.kelvinseet.com

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 

ahbengsong

Alfrescian
Loyal
Reduce the price for the small percentage of ungrateful Singaporeans demanding cheap flats, and reduce the resale price for the 95% of the Singaporeans who already own flats who either want to upgrade or downgrade? You think the government is stupid or what?
Like an MP from your beloved reCHEEme of the MONGREL who bit his masters' hands LOUDHAILER chee soon juan said: Don't talk cock!

the pap is not stupid but the peasants are... making gross obscence profits from public utilities (and housing) is treason to the people... you should read more about how great leaders bring the country forward.. not an old man who bring the country to slavery...
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
Only slaves are people like those in this forum who keep whining. You know, the net worth of a Singaporean when they retire is but a dream for the retirees in the tax and spend democracies.

E.g. many Americans die without much of a dime to leave to their offspring (though they live well on the social security paid by the working people). Thanks, but no thanks.

the pap is not stupid but the peasants are... making gross obscence profits from public utilities (and housing) is treason to the people... you should read more about how great leaders bring the country forward.. not an old man who bring the country to slavery...
 

ah_phah

Alfrescian
Loyal
this island is a corporation, not a country. everything is starting to become pte ltd or ltd. and the ChiefExtortionOfficial has stakes in almost every profiting company. they didn't call themselves HOLDINGs for nothing.

people in the real estate, development, construction industry knows very well how much is the average cost to build & develop HDB. the HDB pricing system is modelled after typical business tactics. mark up retail price 2 or 3 folds higher than actual cost, and use "subsidy" or "sale" as bait to lure suckers. at the end there's still a healthy chunk for profit margin.

now they wash their hands off, they roll out tenders for private developers, so the initial costs already is higher than the norm. higher costs + profiting business tactic = over-pricing. as a result, buyers suffer bcos they kena conned, and become debt slaves to the banks for the loans they take.

eg: 1st time owner young couple aged 30yrs old, buy 4room (avg 100sq meter, $4k/ sq meter???) HDB priced at $400k with very little cold hard cash for down payment, not much in CPF OA for down payment also. so they take 70% loan ($280k) + interest 4%p.a. loan term of 20yrs.

which means they clear their debts when they reach 50yrs old. by then, there's also not much balance in the CPF to pay for children's tertiary fees. then what next? take up study loan?
 

tonychat

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
It all comes downs to those sinkie voters. YOu guys deserve it where you let those sinkiness goes off unguarded.

If you vote for that, you deserve it.. Vaseoline anyone?
 

ah_phah

Alfrescian
Loyal
Reduce the price for the small percentage of ungrateful Singaporeans demanding cheap flats, and reduce the resale price for the 95% of the Singaporeans who already own flats who either want to upgrade or downgrade? You think the government is stupid or what?

Like an MP from your beloved reCHEEme of the MONGREL who bit his masters' hands LOUDHAILER chee soon juan said: Don't talk cock!
so what if they maintain higher value for resale flats? how many people actually go thru hunger panks just to be able to afford it? in the real world of business, valuation also has depreciation value in the equation. prices for resale flats are also bogus, i say.

if it was really that easy for people to liquidate their old flats & upgrade or downgrade after. y do we still see the need for senior citizens coming out of retirement to make a living on their own?

people who own assets automatically convert themselves from free men to debt slaves.
 

Frankiestine

Alfrescian
Loyal
last time they say subsidy based on construction cost then later they say based land cost and now they say based on market price....

:oIo: U P ....Y O U R ...A R S E...P A P!!!
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
if it was really that easy for people to liquidate their old flats & upgrade or downgrade after. y do we still see the need for senior citizens coming out of retirement to make a living on their own?

There will always be some who fall along the wayside, some who made the wrong choices (living it up instead of upgrading to a 5 room that they can now downgrade to a 3 room) in the past.

Look around you. There are many people who did not earn high incomes who painstakingly bought their 3 room flats, upgraded to 4 room flats and then 5 room flats (before the HDB imposed the two subsidised flats rule) and now that their children have grown up and moved out sold their 5 room flats and moved back to a 3 room flat with about $100k-$300k to spare, or moved in with their children with about $300k - $500k to spare. If you allow the price of their resale flats to fall, invariably the differential between big flats and small flats will narrow and then you will have much more elderly people in MacDolands. This way, at least a large portion of the older citizens have money in the bank, and usually a 3-room flat to leave to their children, to boot.
 

ah_phah

Alfrescian
Loyal
There will always be some who fall along the wayside, some who made the wrong choices (living it up instead of upgrading to a 5 room that they can now downgrade to a 3 room) in the past.

Look around you. There are many people who did not earn high incomes who painstakingly bought their 3 room flats, upgraded to 4 room flats and then 5 room flats (before the HDB imposed the two subsidised flats rule) and now that their children have grown up and moved out sold their 5 room flats and moved back to a 3 room flat with about $100k-$300k to spare, or moved in with their children with about $300k - $500k to spare. If you allow the price of their resale flats to fall, invariably the differential between big flats and small flats will narrow and then you will have much more elderly people in MacDolands. This way, at least a large portion of the older citizens have money in the bank, and usually a 3-room flat to leave to their children, to boot.
prudent thinking, frugal spending is in the minds of most avg income sgporeans. but in case u didn't know, 1st time owners now r forced to buy what they don't wish to afford. they're told to go for 4 room or more. if they want 3 room, please find your friendly real estate agents to find a resale unit.

and we know that 3rooms resale for most areas are priced almost as high or maybe higher than new flats.
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
and we know that 3rooms resale for most areas are priced almost as high or maybe higher than new flats.

Those prices are pushed up by the retiring downgraders. Again this is important because those who did not upgrade and are amongst the poor can still take away between $150k-$250k for their 3 room flat and move with their children or into an old folks' home.
 

chupacabra

Alfrescian
Loyal
I bought my flat during the huge surplus years through WIS scheme.

I will be leaving this shithole soon and I won't be selling my pegionhole.

I will rent it out at a unreasonably high amount to FTs till it is fully paid.

I will sell it once there is no more land to build HDB flats.

Fuck HDB and CPF. I am gonna turn the tables on you and rip you off.

I advice other sinkees to do the same and use the FT/lack of housing situation to your advantage.
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
What the hell are you talking about? You are benefiting from the system and nobody is going to begrudge you your good fortune (except some of the losers in this forum). In fact, rent the flat higher than the mortgage payments and pocket the change as passive income. Turn what tables? You are doing it right rather than whining like the others here. Geez.

I bought my flat during the huge surplus years through WIS scheme.

I will be leaving this shithole soon and I won't be selling my pegionhole.

I will rent it out at a unreasonably high amount to FTs till it is fully paid.

I will sell it once there is no more land to build HDB flats.

Fuck HDB and CPF. I am gonna turn the tables on you and rip you off.

I advice other sinkees to do the same and use the FT/lack of housing situation to your advantage.
 
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cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
Ya la, now I kanna follow HDB and CPF rules, I migrate the rules is mine to take advantage of. Tio bo?

You don't have to migrate.

HDB rules allows you to buy at MARKET SUBSIDY and when you sell you make MARKET PROFIT which you can use for your downpayment on your Condo.
 
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