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Europe beg money from china, 100 years ago china beg money from Europe.

singveld

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Eurozone crisis: What it means for East and West

Eurozone leaders have brought their begging bowl to China, looking for help in boosting their bailout fund. So what does this say about the shift in the global balance of power?

In October 1911, China rose up in revolution. Four months later the last emperor had fallen and European moneymen were flocking to Beijing, eager to finance the bankrupt new republic.

In October 2011, another European moneyman headed for Beijing. But Klaus Regling, head of the European Financial Stability Facility, did not go there to lend to China. He was there to borrow, asking China to save Europe from economic disaster.

In just one century, China has gone from financial basketcase to the world's banker, and Europe has made the same trip in the other direction. It is one of the biggest turnarounds in history. How did it happen? And, more to the point, what does it mean?

The turnaround is part of a much longer story.

It begins around 1600, when China was the richest nation on earth and Europeans, anxious to trade with China, were building new kinds of ships. For millennia, the Atlantic Ocean had been a barrier cutting Europe off from the rest of the world, but Europe's new ships effectively shrank the ocean, turning it into a commercial highway. By 1700, the resources of the Americas were feeding a European take-off.

By 1800, Europe's wealth had caught up with China's, but the processes of change kept working. By 1900, steamships had shrunk the Atlantic even more, while railroads and the telegraph had eaten up the vastness of America's plains. As this happened, the US began pushing Europe off the top of the economic ladder.

By 2000, container ships, jetplanes and the internet had shrunk the world even more, and the Pacific too became a trade highway. This propelled East Asia into the global economy and first Japan, then the Asian Tigers and now China scrambled up the ladder after America and Europe.

They still have a long way to go. The average Briton or American earns 10 times as much as the average Chinese. But China is catching up.

So why would China lend to Europe in 2011? Probably for the same reasons that Europe lent to China in 1911 - to keep its markets stable. The EU is China's biggest trade partner and Beijing needs Europeans to be able to buy its goods.


Does this mean that Europe is committing suicide by sending Klaus Regling to Beijing? Once again, we can learn a lot by looking back 100 years.

In 2011, we are used to reading in the newspapers that China is a crass, corrupt, economic giant, manipulating its currency and rigging the markets to catch up with the West. Back in 1911, though, British newspapers levelled exactly the same charges against the USA. And they were right. Within 50 years, the US had conquered the world's markets and the European empires were gone.

A disaster for Europe - or was it? In 2011 the average European lives 30 years longer than the average in 1911 and earns five times as much. Europe is far freer than it was in 1911 and has not had a major war in 66 years. All things considered, losing its number one spot and becoming dependent on American capital was a good deal for 20th Century Europe.

'Sloth and indolence'

Will dependency on Chinese capital in the 21st Century be equally good?

No one knows, but the signs are not promising. Just last week, Jin Liqun, the supervising chairman of China's sovereign wealth fund, told an al-Jazeera interviewer that Beijing should only lend to Europe if the EU turns itself upside down.

"If you look at the troubles which happened in European countries," said Jin. "This is purely because of the accumulated troubles of the worn out welfare society… The labour laws induce sloth, indolence, rather than hard working." Europe might find Chinese economic hegemony much harder to live with than an American one.

Will Shanghai be the world's economic powerhouse in the future? So what should Europe do? Looking at history again suggests an answer.

A hundred and fifty years ago, around 1861, China and Japan both collapsed as Western gunships and financiers pushed into East Asia. Nothing Japan or China could have done would have stopped the rise of Western wealth and power. How they reacted to that rise, however, made all the difference between triumph and tragedy.

China's rulers borrowed heavily from overseas, squandered the capital, and fell into dependency. Japan's rulers bought time, raised huge amounts of local capital and financed an indigenous industrial revolution. By 1911, Japan was a great power and China was the sick man of Asia.

A century and a half later, the EU faces the same choices. Nothing it can do will stop the rise of the Eastern wealth and power - in 100 years, Asia will be the world's economic powerhouse - but how it reacts matters very much indeed.

Europe should choose the Japanese path. It will take trillions of euros to contain the crisis and the pain will be immense. But the alternative, of mortgaging Europe's future with Chinese loans, might prove worse.
 
It is quite amusing... if you go to Notre Dame in Paris these days... you will hear announcement in Mandarin welcoming Chinese tourist every 10 minutes !
 
It is quite amusing... if you go to Notre Dame in Paris these days... you will hear announcement in Mandarin welcoming Chinese tourist every 10 minutes !
still, imo, the whites dun like the chinese.
the whites still have tat kind of superior feel on the chinese.
:eek:
 
still, imo, the whites dun like the chinese.
the whites still have tat kind of superior feel on the chinese.
:eek:

You were wrong our ancestors never begged money from the WHITE MAN, they were considered and still quietly considered these days, as "ang moh kui" aka Babarians. It is the Chinese stupidity & inability to to be cohesive as a nation, that allowed Cathay then China, to be plundered & raped.
 
It must take them alot of effort to put down their pride & go to China with their hats in hand...LOL

shift of power. Enjoy it while its here....its not going to be here for long...
 
You were wrong our ancestors never begged money from the WHITE MAN, they were considered and still quietly considered these days, as "ang moh kui" aka Babarians. It is the Chinese stupidity & inability to to be cohesive as a nation, that allowed Cathay then China, to be plundered & raped.
bud, no, i'm not saying our ancestors beg money from the whites.
i do agree chinese is 一盘散沙.
 
You were wrong our ancestors never begged money from the WHITE MAN, they were considered and still quietly considered these days, as "ang moh kui" aka Babarians. It is the Chinese stupidity & inability to to be cohesive as a nation, that allowed Cathay then China, to be plundered & raped.

yeah they did, in this article, beg for money = ask for a loan. so in that context, china did beg for money in the past.
 
Chine must play right game. Eg. willing to buy high tech machine/technology for the cash.
Then reversed engineer kill the Ang Moh. Just like the high speed train. Very soon airplane in few year time when plane compete with A320 and B737 start roll out.
 
No need to give a single cent. When they are truly broke, they will sell China and to the world the technology for cost. Just wait. Asia can take more pain than EU. Their GDP consists of too much borrowing, not labor.
 
The Americans will rather sink their technology to the bed of the sea then see it reach China. Americans truly believe they are still on top of the world.
Europe have been thru this road before when they were overtaken post WW2. Reaching out the hands is easier the second time and they know the game. America's pressure and tribal calling to the west will eventually wane.

Too early for China to do anything as yet. EU is still trying to hide cards and play bluffs. Let them drown and when the real talents and valuables float, cast out the the net.
 
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One of the best test to see what is vogue and desirable is to see the migration flow and admission to schools and universities. That flow is all to the west without exception.PRC students not only flock to the west, many continue to remain in these countries while they milk and exploit the fellow countrymen.

Young girls and boys kept in massive hostels like battery hens as they churn out millions of products that are designed and created by the west.

The question is where do the revenue that comes out of these factories go. Are they invested in local R&D or are they repatriated so that PRC bosses can fund their western lifestyle and build families in the West.

The Chinese due to the lack of transparency and rife corruption are unable to even give an account to their own citizens.

If China wants to stand tall, it needs to control its own R&D, begin innovating their own products and rewards innovators. Unfortunately the best minds are not in China but in the US. Both China and India have the same identical problem - their best minds are in the US. Every University R&D area is littered with these guys.
 
If China wants to stand tall, it needs to control its own R&D, begin innovating their own products and rewards innovators. Unfortunately the best minds are not in China but in the US. Both China and India have the same identical problem - their best minds are in the US. Every University R&D area is littered with these guys.

2c thoughts.

From what I understand, more and more Chinese and Indian migrants are having that "What am I doing here?" thoughts. After decades in the west, they are heading back to their motherlands to well-appointed jobs. True, they leave a door open to leave again if they are not appreciated.

Not sure how long this backflow will last, already, these returnees are founding out that they need more than just funding and government incentives. Plagiarism and envy from their local peers are in the rage in this opaque academic world.
 
The first generation return but not their offspring. No way in hell will someone raised from young will return to 3rd world state. Would you buy a Fiat after driving better models?The first generation who return are unable to adapt, too old to adapt or like the respect accorded by the locals to returnees who have done well overseas. Then there those who are treated like expats remuneration wise.
2c thoughts.From what I understand, more and more Chinese and Indian migrants are having that "What am I doing here?" thoughts. After decades in the west, they are heading back to their motherlands to well-appointed jobs. True, they leave a door open to leave again if they are not appreciated. Not sure how long this backflow will last, already, these returnees are founding out that they need more than just funding and government incentives. Plagiarism and envy from their local peers are in the rage in this opaque academic world.
 
I percieve it abit differently.The new generation "best minds" have always been in China tightly controlled by their Central govt. A fraction are sent to US and slowly these are returning as well. They usually have very good business mindset thus veiwed suspiciously by the govt. They thread on thin line. Baidu founder strikes out as one of them.
The US have now realised this is a big brain drain problem. Those Chinese who have set up families are eventually returning home as well.
The transition from manufacturing based to focal on R&D economy usually take decades. I see this as a good time for the chinese to lure in the talents rather then having to send out theirs. This should speed up the change.
 
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gosh how come europe did not ask stingy India for money?? they always claim to be the richest even with china usa and russia combined
 
gosh how come europe did not ask stingy India for money?? they always claim to be the richest even with china usa and russia combined

Many European companies, esp in the UK and southern Europe, are in Indian ownership already.

The first generation return but not their offspring. No way in hell will someone raised from young will return to 3rd world state. Would you buy a Fiat after driving better models?The first generation who return are unable to adapt, too old to adapt or like the respect accorded by the locals to returnees who have done well overseas. Then there those who are treated like expats remuneration wise.

True, retro Fiat 500 for nostalgia only.

It is a bit like Singaporeans going back to the parents' countries for business. But then, Singapore is not exactly First World. Vietnamese Aussies sama sama. Hongkong Canadians offsprings .... TVB station full of them.

I am not sure how long the Asian century will last, but offsprings are finding Asia attractive compared to the jobs back home or even just to expand their universe.

European countries are like big theme parks for Asian visitors.

Americans are realising that they have lost the supporting industries that they need for future research. (eg alternative energy) they need the boring support from China.
 
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I read this thread (and others) and get the feeling that some of you guys still think like 100 years (or more) ago.

C'mon, Nationalism is over, it is now Corporatism.

Smart Chinese are no longer loyal to China, in the same way smart Yankees are no longer loyal to Uncle Sam (what about Sinkies?). Other than those who are in government (eg. Lybia, Syria) highly paid successful professionals can jump from one company to another. From one city to another. Banking is international, people work across time zones.

Military contracts are subcontracted to private companies who make the money. Even crime is cross-culture now. The successful Hell's Angels members work with Vietnamese street gangs to distribute meth, and drive Lambos. Some still risk stupidly, fight for gang honour and sell T-shirts to survive.

This China thing, c'mon - it is 2011 now. Stop thinking like a medieval toad still stuck in Opium War days.

Cheers!
 
C'mon, Nationalism is over, it is now Corporatism.

Smart Chinese are no longer loyal to China, in the same way smart Yankees are no longer loyal to Uncle Sam (what about Sinkies?). Other than those who are in government (eg. Lybia, Syria) highly paid successful professionals can jump from one company to another. From one city to another. Banking is international, people work across time zones.

This China thing, c'mon - it is 2011 now. Stop thinking like a medieval toad still stuck in Opium War days.

Cheers!

Good point bro...by reading so many postings in SBF, I get the feel that Singaporean Chinese are very sentimental about their Motherland. I am of the group who does not care who wins the war as long as I am ok. Let's be pragmatic and think what is in it for us at the end of the day.
 
I read this thread (and others) and get the feeling that some of you guys still think like 100 years (or more) ago.

C'mon, Nationalism is over, it is now Corporatism.

Smart Chinese are no longer loyal to China, in the same way smart Yankees are no longer loyal to Uncle Sam (what about Sinkies?). Other than those who are in government (eg. Lybia, Syria) highly paid successful professionals can jump from one company to another. From one city to another. Banking is international, people work across time zones.

Military contracts are subcontracted to private companies who make the money. Even crime is cross-culture now. The successful Hell's Angels members work with Vietnamese street gangs to distribute meth, and drive Lambos. Some still risk stupidly, fight for gang honour and sell T-shirts to survive.

This China thing, c'mon - it is 2011 now. Stop thinking like a medieval toad still stuck in Opium War days.

Cheers!

Thing is Even Corporatism rewards the China stamp. Angmo professionals and politicians are openly throwing their kids in China to go float there. Most popular secondment destinations now are China cities. Even 4th -5th generation chinese in Western countries are hyped up. Just personal observations, old angmo bosses are calling on for the young ones that are able to, not to stay in 1 well too long.
 
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Thing is Even Corporatism rewards the China stamp. Angmo professionals and politicians are openly throwing their kids in China to go float there. Most popular secondment destinations now are China cities. Even 4th -5th generation chinese in Western countries are hyped up. Just personal observations, old angmo bosses are calling on for the young ones that are able to, not to stay in 1 well too long.

These corporations have based themselves in China for their own sake - not for China's sake. Among the Chinese, only the well qualified ones are employed - there is no welfare. So much for the classless revolution Mao and his comrades started. When they report that China benefits, it would be more right to say what percentage of China benefits - those from the rural villages aren't even considered citizens. No diff for the Yankee citizen - the well connected go where the plant/office go, the others (masses), whether unionized or not are mostly shafted up their ass. Even before Globalization became a household word, corporations were based all over the world in strategic locations. There was a Ford assembly plant in Sg in the 60s, Eveready batteries were made in Bukit Timah, and Castrol Oil was opposite that plant. What's happening in China is nothing new, just new for China.

Cheers!
 
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