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Don't fly SQ Boeing 777, confirmed engine can stop in mid-air!

Papsmearer

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http://news.asiaone.com/News/The+Business+Times/Story/A1Story20090316-128911.html

SIA stays cool over BA Boeing crash warning

Ven Sreenivasan
Mon, Mar 16, 2009
The Business Times



(SINGAPORE) The airline industry has reason to sweat over the crash of a British Airways (BA) Boeing 777, but Singapore Airlines (SIA) is convinced that the warm Asian climate will keep its own fleet safe.

British aviation investigators warned last week that there was a 'high probability' that a fault that caused a BA jet to crash-land at Heathrow in January 2008 could hit other Boeing 777s.

On the surface, this is alarming news for SIA, whose fleet of 77 B777s is the largest in the world and accounts for three-quarters of its aircraft.


None of the 152 BA flight passengers were seriously injured in last year's crash, thanks to the experience and expertise of the pilots. SIA is confident that its fleet, too, will escape unscathed.

Its spokesman Stephen Forshaw suggested that the conditions which caused the BA incident were somewhat different from the conditions under which the SIA planes operate.

'The BA incident was a result of a loss of power on approach to Heathrow after prolonged exposure to abnormally cold conditions. The bulk of our Rolls-Royce-powered 777s do regional routes where exposure to prolonged cold periods is rare,' he told BT.

He added that the B777-300ERs that SIA uses on its longer-haul routes, including Europe/Moscow where temperatures get very cold in winter, were powered by GE engines, which use different fuel flow systems.

Last Thursday, a second interim report from the UK's Air Accidents Investigation Branch said that during the flight from Beijing, ice may have developed in the fuel pipes of the BA plane. The plane was powered by Roll-Royce Trent engines.

Ten months later, a Delta Air Lines Boeing 777 flying from Shanghai to Atlanta encountered similar 'engine rollback' or sudden power loss.

This has prompted the US Federal Aviation Administration to issue an air-worthiness directive to US carriers operating Boeing 777 aircraft.

US air accident investigators have also called for a component redesign to prevent future incidents.

SIA has been following the investigations closely.

'All our pilots have been briefed in detail on what actions to take to prevent ice build-up in fuel flow systems,' said Mr Forshaw.

There are currently 220 Boeing 777s with Rolls-Royce Trent 800 engines in operation with 11 airlines around the world.

These carriers are following the investigations with a degree of nervousness as any call to modify the fleet could affect their operations.

SIA is the world's single largest user of the plane, with 77 jets in its fleet of 101 comprising of this model. Of these, 58 B777s are powered by Rolls-Royce engines, while the remaining 19 have GE engines. The latter are used in long hauls.

'Typically, this incident is more likely when an aircraft flies the polar route both ways and ground temperature at the stopover point is well below zero,' Mr Forshaw said.

'The advantage of our planes coming back to Singapore quickly is its tropical climate. The only planes we use on the polar routes are the GE-powered aircraft.'

Meanwhile, British power systems giant Rolls-Royce, whose engines power more than half the planes in service, has said it will introduce a new modification to the fuel system that would allow it to cope better 'in the event of a fuel system ice release event'.

What I don't understand is that even on regional flights, does not SIA fly their Boeing 777 at 35,000 ft or higher, and is there not extreme cold at that altitude and hence the possibility of ice buildup?
 

lockeliberal

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Dear PAP

It is the combination of high attitude cold weather countries which have caused these incidents. Both these flights happened on travels into and out of Beijing, and the flights were routed over Siberia and the North Pole for long long periods, hence extreme in temps.

Cheers


Locke
 

Papsmearer

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Dear PAP

It is the combination of high attitude cold weather countries which have caused these incidents. Both these flights happened on travels into and out of Beijing, and the flights were routed over Siberia and the North Pole for long long periods, hence extreme in temps.

Cheers


Locke

Whatever Locke, you know how low temperature has to be to freeze fuel? The fact is they still don't know what happened other than the fact the engines stopped on a B777 on at least 2 occasions, I was reading the AAIB report excerpt, lots more questions not answered.

British Airways 777 crash - update leaves a mystery
By Kieran Daly on February 18, 2008 4:49 PM | Permalink | Comments (2) | TrackBacks (1) |ShareThis
The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) has today issued an update on its investigation of the crash of the British Airways Boeing 777 at Heathrow last month. It appears to rule out several of the most-discussed possible causes, and does not strongly point to any particular cause. It mentions a couple of further lines of enquiry.

Overall, the mystery persists. I've summarised the key points below. You can read the whole thing at the AAIB site.

1. There was plenty of fuel remaining on board (10,500kg).

2. At no point in the flight did the fuel become cold enough to freeze, although conditions during the flight were notably cold. The Met Office says "not exceptional".

3. There is no sign of the fuel having been contaminated with water or anything else.

4. The autopilot, authothrottle, and engine electrical controls all worked as they should.

5. There is no evidence of engine mechanical defect, birdstrikes, or ice ingestion.

6. There are signs of "abnormal cavitation on the press-side bearings and the outlet ports" of both high-pressure fuel pumps. "This could be indicative of either a restriction in the fuel supply to the pumps or excessive aeration of the fuel. The manufacturer assessed both pumps as still being capable of delivering full fuel flow."

7. Some small bits of debris (tape, a small scraper, piece of paper, etc) were found in the fuel tanks. "The relevance of this debris is still being considered."

8. It played no role in causing the accident, but a quirk of the way BA implemented the Boeing checklist in the event of an evacuation, led to valves designed to shut off fuel to the engines being left open and allowing fuel to spill around the wreckage. Boeing has accepted a safety recommendation made by the AAIb last week.

That's it!
 

jojostar

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(SINGAPORE) The airline industry has reason to sweat over the crash of a British Airways (BA) Boeing 777, but Singapore Airlines (SIA) is convinced that the warm Asian climate will keep its own fleet safe.

huh? don't they fly at such a high elevation that everything outside freezes even if flying over the tropics, and don't they fly these aircraft to cold climate destinations? so safe on the round only in the tropics???

it is ok though as i don't fly sia, they charge way to much and i find the stewardesses to be real arrogant slut. cathay is best asian airline and hk and seoul and bangkok airports are much better than changi, best regional airline is thai airasia the stewardesses are really hot young thai girls.
 

Papsmearer

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(SINGAPORE) The airline industry has reason to sweat over the crash of a British Airways (BA) Boeing 777, but Singapore Airlines (SIA) is convinced that the warm Asian climate will keep its own fleet safe.

huh? don't they fly at such a high elevation that everything outside freezes even if flying over the tropics, and don't they fly these aircraft to cold climate destinations? so safe on the round only in the tropics???

it is ok though as i don't fly sia, they charge way to much and i find the stewardesses to be real arrogant slut. cathay is best asian airline and hk and seoul and bangkok airports are much better than changi, best regional airline is thai airasia the stewardesses are really hot young thai girls.

That's what I said in the original post. When you fly at 35,000 +, everything outside is freezing temperature, even if its 30 degrees at ground level. Dun know why people don't get this. U just hope that during the descent, the ice will melt, but even so, the Delta flight was on its way to SHanghai when it exeprienced this.
 

lockeliberal

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The investigation into why a British Airways Boeing 777 on Jan. 17 crashed (with no fatalities) short of the runway at London's Heathrow airport has determined "that there are two possible scenarios" that match the data collected from the flight -- both involve ice in the fuel system. The Air Accidents Investigation Board (AAIB) has found that of all flights flown with similar equipment (about 140,000), less than 0.2 percent had been subjected to fuel temperatures at or below the minus 34 degrees centigrade recorded for the accident aircraft. The accident aircraft is also noted for operating in those temperatures at very low fuel flows, but within certified operational limits. As a result, Boeing 777 pilots will be required to cycle the thrust of their engines (maximum thrust for 10 seconds prior to descent) to clear the system of ice before landing and vary their altitudes en route when fuel in the main tank is below 10 degrees Celsius for more than three hours.
 

Char_Azn

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If what the investigation says is true and it happens to prolong exposure to cold weather then SQ planes is not that badly affected since almost all their planes do not stop over in temperate countries for long periods of time.

However, I have another question is the temperature at the attitude which most airplane operates in gets really cold?
 

Watchman

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'All our pilots have been briefed in detail on what actions to take to prevent ice build-up in fuel flow systems,' said Mr Forshaw.

This is not the way to
shift some of the blame to pilots if anything were to happen .

This is the job of the equipment design team !
 

halsey02

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This is not the way to
shift some of the blame to pilots if anything were to happen .

This is the job of the equipment design team !

Same principle applies here, why shift the blame to the residents who does not want the Lift Upgrading??..where it is the job of those who design the flats to rectify the errors...

:o
 

Char_Azn

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Same principle applies here, why shift the blame to the residents who does not want the Lift Upgrading??..where it is the job of those who design the flats to rectify the errors...

:o

I think it's a bit different. In your case, it's a lack of features while in watchmen's example, its a fault caused by the plane designer not being able to identify potential risk.

A knows that the product is incomplete/lack certain features but still buys it, should the manufacturers be blame for selling a faulty product even after they pointed out to A that the features were missing before the product was sold?

In the case above, the plane designer taking the responsibility, that is a bit different in the sense that there exist a risk which would cause the failure of the plane which the designers failed to anticipate. Translated to HDB terms, it would mean that if there is a failure in the building which would cause the flat to collapse or something then it is their fault and should be the one to rectify an error.

Unlessof coz you intend to tell me that making sure the plane doesn't break apart is an extra feature then I really have nothing to say

However I don't totally disagree with you. Lift stopping at every floor maybe an extra feature, cracks in the ceiling, walls, leaks etc is definitely HDB's fault. They sell us an apartment, we freaking expect it to not have cracks and part of the ceiling collapsing. Or leaking. And they should be the ones fixing these but as far as I know, we are suppose to fix it ourselves out of our own pockets :oIo::oIo::oIo:
 

eatshitndie

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too late for me. i flew from sfo to seoul/inchon and back on two sq 777's without incidents. seoul is not like sin. it's freaking cold and wintery in november. 777 flights on other airlines to snowbound beijing were also without incidents. you morons are paranoid for nothing.
 

singveld

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no joke, i flew over siberia a few times, and it is cold even in the plane with pressurised and heated cabin.

if they know the problem, they can workaround the problem until they solved the issue.




Dear PAP

It is the combination of high attitude cold weather countries which have caused these incidents. Both these flights happened on travels into and out of Beijing, and the flights were routed over Siberia and the North Pole for long long periods, hence extreme in temps.

Cheers


Locke
 

lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear SING

Err its really cold, when the WINDOW feels cold and the walls of the aircraft feels cold. Sing-London at some time used to be routed over siberia and beijing man window seats were not that fun



Locke
 

singveld

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have you flew over siberia in winter times??
i tried it before, next time, i will be well prepared.
i never flew over north pole though.

i think i flew over it everytime in 777.
so i guess i was lucky like millions of people.


Dear SING
Err its really cold, when the WINDOW feels cold and the walls of the aircraft feels cold. Sing-London at some time used to be routed over siberia and beijing man window seats were not that fun
Locke
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
(SINGAPORE) The airline industry has reason to sweat over the crash of a British Airways (BA) Boeing 777, but Singapore Airlines (SIA) is convinced that the warm Asian climate will keep its own fleet safe.

huh? don't they fly at such a high elevation that everything outside freezes even if flying over the tropics, and don't they fly these aircraft to cold climate destinations? so safe on the round only in the tropics???

it is ok though as i don't fly sia, they charge way to much and i find the stewardesses to be real arrogant slut. cathay is best asian airline and hk and seoul and bangkok airports are much better than changi, best regional airline is thai airasia the stewardesses are really hot young thai girls.

I don`t fly SQ anymore, I find the stewardess treat u like shit once they know u are sinkie, but if you are angmo, they will faun over u.
 

Papsmearer

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I think it's a bit different. In your case, it's a lack of features while in watchmen's example, its a fault caused by the plane designer not being able to identify potential risk.

A knows that the product is incomplete/lack certain features but still buys it, should the manufacturers be blame for selling a faulty product even after they pointed out to A that the features were missing before the product was sold?

In the case above, the plane designer taking the responsibility, that is a bit different in the sense that there exist a risk which would cause the failure of the plane which the designers failed to anticipate. Translated to HDB terms, it would mean that if there is a failure in the building which would cause the flat to collapse or something then it is their fault and should be the one to rectify an error.

Unlessof coz you intend to tell me that making sure the plane doesn't break apart is an extra feature then I really have nothing to say

However I don't totally disagree with you. Lift stopping at every floor maybe an extra feature, cracks in the ceiling, walls, leaks etc is definitely HDB's fault. They sell us an apartment, we freaking expect it to not have cracks and part of the ceiling collapsing. Or leaking. And they should be the ones fixing these but as far as I know, we are suppose to fix it ourselves out of our own pockets :oIo::oIo::oIo:

Actually in this case, Boeing did not design the engines which are the root cause of this problem. U will notice there are no such problem on GE engines on this plane, only on Rolls Royce. Although Boeing works closely with the engine maker in the certification of their engine for use on the 777, ultimately, RR is responsible for the performance of their engine.
 
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