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Chitchat Radicalization, economic disenfranchisement, and global threats

Macroeconomics101

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The core vulnerability of any radicalized individual is his economic disenfranchisement. Lack of jobs, lack of respect, lack of even the notion of what a "future" can mean for himself.

That's the kind of people that get drawn into religious and political propaganda. They are basically tools used to further the ends of their masters. For often than not, their masters are in fact politicians. Religion has always been, and will always be, the handmaiden of politics.

The creation of the modern Jihadist serves the interests of different countries at different times, but it's not hard to see through the thick cloud of simplistic misinformation and childish analysis offered by the mainstream press if one has a basic grasp of geopolitics and how modern politics is conducted.

I have also believed that the creation of a terror network in the middle east as well as the way the Americans and the Saudis are handling the situation is ultimately detrimental to Russia, and that is why Russia is supporting Assad and actively countering American and Saudi interests in the region. This is where it gets complicated and I would appreciate input. I know the story is not a good versus evil story. That's the simplistic lie you sell to conservative voters back home in the rust belt.

Taking a step back at the broader picture, I also believe the world will face far greater threads that even Jihadist terrorism in the years to come. Old Man predicted that China would become belligerent eventually and that has panned out. Take China coupled with North Korea and Asia becomes a tinderbox again, like it has been for much of the 20th century.
 

Macroeconomics101

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China is now wealthier & wants a bigger piece of the global pie. Their behaviour shows that they are no better than the other current & ex- super powers


"Better" or "worse" prescribes some kind of moral standard by which superpowers should behave. The fact is, there is none. Unless everyone in the world suddenly worships a supernatural deity who has the absolute right to bestow reward and punishment and fervently believes in that reality, why should any country play nice or play right? Power comes from the barrel of a gun and the foundation of politics is power. In fact the foundation of morality is also power, because without power, you cannot implement your own moral code. Think about that!
 

scroobal

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In the main agree. Anyone with a weak mind including someone from an established family, gainfully employed and with a bright future can be radicalised. Its just easier to work with someone who is lost. And there is a large pool. No other religion has the highest numbers of illiterate people.

More importantly if there is perception of oppression, it provides a cause such as the unfinished business of Palestine and Palestinians. Schisms within emotive subjects like religion also fuels terror acts such as Sunni vs Shiites. Then there is also remnants of past battles such as Afghanistan and USSR who have know no other value other than being foot soldiers. They go from conflict to conflict.

The West is not prepared as their liberalism allows ethnic enclaves , who bring along their historical baggage, fail to assimilate, and preach their old prejudices and create home grown terror.

As to China I would not worry. Chinese parents right across income spectrum aspire to send their kids to the West for their education and even to start a new life and business. Deng's daughter resides in London. Family comes first. The frequent bellowing is to stoke nationalism amongst the gullible masses and stop them thinking about corruption within the communist elite who control all levers of power. You can't have idle minds wondering if democracy should be considered. The Tianamen incident was the result of the elites becoming more accommodating to the masses. Not anymore. Lets use the US and the West as the bogeyman is the new political strategy. No different to old man using the CPM as the bogeyman to keep himself in power. Look at the Chinese leader's body language and that of his wife as he visits Western leaders. Very very pleasant. Compare that to Putin and others who are engaged with ideological and issue driven conflict with the West. China's other strategy is to buy stake and influence from countries who are in an economic pickle - Sri Lanka, Pakistan, African nations, Laos, Cambodia, and now Malaysia etc and develop their famous guanxi.

Note the amount of economic investment placed by China's elite and middle class across the west and Australia. From condo, commercial properties to malls etc. Why imperil these investments.. No Chinese leader will go to war - it does not make any sense. Their newly built planes need to take their countrymen to visit Paris, Disneyland. Why screw up a good thing.

Every time a Chinese fighter flies upside down in an intimidating manner to confront a US surveillance aircraft in the South China Sea, millions of blurfucks go into into an orgasm. At the same time, numerous sons and daughters of provincial leading cadres are psychically in an Ivy league college enrolling and you should see the faces of their accompanying parents. Then you have a young Chinese graduate facetiming his parents to say that he was accepted into Morgan Stanley Intern programme. You think these people are concerned about the stunts over the South China Sea.



The core vulnerability of any radicalized individual is his economic disenfranchisement. Lack of jobs, lack of respect, lack of even the notion of what a "future" can mean for himself.

That's the kind of people that get drawn into religious and political propaganda. They are basically tools used to further the ends of their masters. For often than not, their masters are in fact politicians. Religion has always been, and will always be, the handmaiden of politics.

The creation of the modern Jihadist serves the interests of different countries at different times, but it's not hard to see through the thick cloud of simplistic misinformation and childish analysis offered by the mainstream press if one has a basic grasp of geopolitics and how modern politics is conducted.

I have also believed that the creation of a terror network in the middle east as well as the way the Americans and the Saudis are handling the situation is ultimately detrimental to Russia, and that is why Russia is supporting Assad and actively countering American and Saudi interests in the region. This is where it gets complicated and I would appreciate input. I know the story is not a good versus evil story. That's the simplistic lie you sell to conservative voters back home in the rust belt.

Taking a step back at the broader picture, I also believe the world will face far greater threads that even Jihadist terrorism in the years to come. Old Man predicted that China would become belligerent eventually and that has panned out. Take China coupled with North Korea and Asia becomes a tinderbox again, like it has been for much of the 20th century.
 
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frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
"Better" or "worse" prescribes some kind of moral standard by which superpowers should behave. The fact is, there is none. Unless everyone in the world suddenly worships a supernatural deity who has the absolute right to bestow reward and punishment and fervently believes in that reality, why should any country play nice or play right? Power comes from the barrel of a gun and the foundation of politics is power. In fact the foundation of morality is also power, because without power, you cannot implement your own moral code. Think about that!

reminds me of a scene from the movie 1984....theres no such thing as right or wrong,there is only pure POWER!!!!!

“Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.”

[video=youtube;g1WI8BUe9Eg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1WI8BUe9Eg[/video]
 

aurvandil

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Many people have the misconception that Islam is a religion of peace. It is not and the article below explains why. I like the way the author explains how Muslims who are serious about their religion will eventually come to a three forked road. Also of note is the point that one of the driving factors of radicalization is that with modern technology, it is now easy for a lay person to have access to the foundational texts of Islam. This is unlike the past of having to go through the filter of an iman. His book, Answering Jihad, is probably something policy makers should read.

http://archives.relevantmagazine.com/current/global/islam-religion-peace

Nabeel Qureshi grew up in a devout Muslim family. But in college, he started exploring the claims of Christianity and eventually decided to convert.

Since then, Qureshi has devoted himself to studying Christian apologetics and writing and speaking about Islam and Christianity. In his latest book, Answering Jihad, Qureshi addresses many of the big questions he’s heard American Christians asking after attacks like those in Paris, San Bernardino and Brussels. He says he wanted to help give people a context to understand what Islam is, who Muslims are, what is driving radical militant groups like ISIS and Boko Haram.

“Unless we figure out what’s going on on this basic level, I don’t think we’ll be able to respond appropriately as a nation on policy issues,” he says.

We talked to Qureshi about what the Quran teaches about violence, why Muslims are being radicalized and why Christians need to befriend their Muslim neighbors.

One of the questions you address in the book is whether Islam really is a religion of peace. Is it?


Although the vast majority of Muslims might be peaceful people, when you say "Islam is a religion of peace," you’re talking about the system or the religion from its inception. Apart from the first 13 years that Muhammad claimed to be a prophet, you don’t really have any history of Islam that was devoid of violence. The moment Muhammad was able to start fighting, he started launching battles at a rate of nine battles a year until he died. And then after he died, Muslims conquered one-third of the known world—from the shores of the Atlantic to India.

"We as Christians are called and equipped to reach out to Muslims, to embrace them, to make friends with them."

So from the very beginning of Islamic history, violence has been quite present. So what do we mean when we say Islam is a religion of peace? The only way that could possibly mean something true is if we say Islam somehow brings peace to a person, but that’s not the way the slogan is being used.

It seems like if you look at the Old Testament, you could argue that Christianity and Judaism have been pretty violent religions, as well. What would you say to people who say Christianity is violent, too?

Christians as a force did not fight for hundreds of years until after Jesus. Jesus Himself, when He was being arrested unjustly, told His men to put away their swords because “He who lives by the sword will die by the sword.” At no point do we see Jesus carrying a sword in the Gospels, and at no point does He command violence.

So it’s really hard to say something like “Christianity is violent” unless you assume that the actions of crusaders or people who claim to be Christian reflect on the religion, and I don’t think they do.

When it comes to Islam, I’m not saying “Look how violent the terrorists are, therefore Islam is violent.” That would be poor reasoning. What I’m saying is the foundations of Islam—I’m talking about the Quran and the life of Muhammed—are very violent. Islam can be formulated in non-violent ways, but to do so, you have to depart from its foundations, as many Muslims do.

When it comes to Christianity, it’s a completely different picture. Now, the slightly problematic issue would be the Old Testament where God does command some violence. It’s not as much as people think. Most of the violence in the Old Testament was not commanded but simply recorded, but there were a few battles that were commanded. What we see though, in Deuteronomy 9 and 11, for example, is that this was judgement—the judgement of God coming upon a small group of people relative to all the people that existed. It was just a small group, and it was for a specific time, and they had been given 400 years to repent.

This is very different from what we see with Islam. With Islam, there’s no limitation to who can come under Jihad. It’s not a judgement for sins, it’s an establishment of the superiority of Islam, as we see in chapter 9:33 of the Quran. So it’s a totally different ballgame, especially if you’re comparing it to Christianity.

Does it seem to you like there are more Muslims being radicalized with ISIS gaining power than there used to be?

Oh, absolutely. You’ve got thousands of Europeans who are going to Syria and Iraq to fight on behalf of ISIS. We don’t know exactly how many, but numbers have estimated over 5,000 non-Syrians and non-Iraqis have gone to fight. Why is that?

In my book, I explore the fact that people have greater access to the foundational texts of Islam. People can read the Quran very easily now. They didn’t used to necessarily be able to do that. People can read about Muhammad's life just by going on the Internet. In the past, you’d have to ask your imam, you’d have to travel somewhere to a religious library. But since they are now seeing these things directly, they’re getting affected by them directly.

Muslims are coming to a three-prong fork in the road where they’re being confronted with the reality of violence in Islam, and they can either react to that violence by ignoring it and becoming nominal Muslims, abhorring it and becoming apostates or embracing it and becoming radicalized. We’re seeing all three of those groups grow: radical Muslims, nominal Muslims and Muslim apostates who are leaving Islam because they’re interacting, they’re encountering the violent reality of Islam.


So do you think there’s any foundation to all the different fears the U.S. has and politicians wanting to keep Muslim refugees out?

Well, it’s a polarized response. You have two responses I’m seeing in America: You have the people saying, “Islam is a religion of peace. All Muslims are peaceful, loving people. ISIS and the like are hijacking Islam and not representative of Muslims.” I like that response in that it’s compassionate, but I don’t like how it ignores some of the truth. On the other side of the equation, you have people who are saying, “Islam is a violent religion, therefore all Muslims are all threats, therefore let’s keep them out of the country.” That’s a problematic response. It’s completely uncompassionate. It doesn’t distinguish between people and a belief system. But it does at least deal with the truth about Islam. So the title of my book, Answering Jihad: The Better Way Forward, the better way forward is embracing both truth and compassion, truth about Islam but compassion for Muslims.

If we want to know how to respond, if we want to understand what the security risk is, both internal and external in the United States then we need to understand the reality, we need to understand what Islam is versus who Muslims are, otherwise we’ll just get caught up in this rhetoric.

Is there anything Christians as individuals can do to combat this radical version of Islam?

I think we can start by being proactive. People seem to be very, very afraid of Muslims. [But] Jesus would reach out to people even if it cost Him his social status. He would reach out to people who other people would not reach out to. We as Christians are called and equipped to reach out to Muslims, to embrace them, to make friends with them. These people who are becoming radicalized are coming out of our neighborhoods, they’re coming out of our cities. If we befriend them and embrace them and love them such that when they’re wrestling with these issues of radicalization, we are there and able to talk to them about it, that will be a great hindering factor from them being radicalized.

Step two, I think, is letting Muslims see that Christians actually do love them. There’s a tremendous “us versus them” mentality amongst Muslims, and part of that has to do with the way Islam is set up. They see Westerners as Christians. They see the police, the military, the diplomats as Christians. So all these negative motives, all these negative events—even the drone bombings and attacks in the Middle East, what Israel is doing—they’ll impute all of that to Christianity.

If they see Christians loving them and reaching out to them and perhaps embracing refugees, then they might realize before they get radicalized that perhaps the Islamic narrative of who Christians are is wrong. I just suggest we be proactive, we reach out to Muslims, even refugees who are coming, teaching them English, teaching them how to drive, teaching them about the customs of our nations. And in so doing, I think we will do a great deal to hinder the progress of radical Islam.
 
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gatehousethetinkertailor

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Many people have the misconception that Islam is a religion of peace. It is not and the article below explains why. I like the way the author explains how Muslims who are serious about their religion will eventually come to a three forked road. Also of note is the point that one of the driving factors of radicalization is that with modern technology, it is now easy for a lay person to have access to the foundational texts of Islam. This is unlike the past of having to go through the filter of an iman. His book, Answering Jihad, is probably something policy makers should read.

http://archives.relevantmagazine.com/current/global/islam-religion-peace

You neglected to mention that he was born into an Ahamdiya Muslim family and converted to Christianity ("Nabeel Qureshi is a Pakistani American Christian apologist and convert from Ahmadiyya Muslim Community." watch his journey to Christ here): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bjv2t7PC7E

His Ahmadiyya heritage is significant because it diverges from the two "main" sects of Islam:

[I]It originated with the life and teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908), who claimed to have appeared in fulfilment of the prophecies concerning the world's reformer during the end times, who was to bring about, by peaceful means, the final triumph of Islam and herald the eschaton as predicted in Islamic scriptures as well as the traditions of various world religions. He claimed to have been divinely appointed as the Mujaddid (renewer) of Islam, the promised Messiah and Mahdi awaited by Muslims.[7][8][9][10] The adherents of the Ahmadiyya movement are referred to as Ahmadi Muslims or simply Ahmadis.

Ahmadi thought emphasizes the belief that Islam is the final dispensation for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring to it its true essence and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries.Ahmadiyya adherents believe that Ahmad appeared in the likeness of Jesus, to end religious wars, condemn bloodshed and reinstitute morality, justice, and peace. They believe that upon divine guidance he divested Islam of fanatical and innovative beliefs and practices by championing what is, in their view, Islam’s true and essential teachings as practised by Muhammad and the early Islamic community. Thus, Ahmadis view themselves as leading the revival and peaceful propagation of Islam.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad founded the movement on 23 March 1889. Since his death, the community has been led by a number of Caliphs and has expanded to 209 countries and territories of the world as of 2016 with concentrations in South Asia, West Africa, East Africa and Indonesia. The Ahmadis have a strong missionary tradition and were among the earliest Muslim communities to arrive in Britain and other Western countries.Currently, the community is led by its Caliph, Mirza Masroor Ahmad, and is estimated to number between 10 and 20 million worldwide.

The population is almost entirely contained in the single, highly organized and united movement. In this sense there is only one major branch. However, in the early history of the community, a number of Ahmadis broke away over the nature of Ahmad's prophethood and succession and formed the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement which today represent a small fraction of all Ahmadis. Some Ahmadiyya-specific beliefs have been thought of as opposed to contemporary mainstream Islamic thought since the movement's birth, and some Ahmadis have subsequently faced persecution.Many Muslims consider Ahmadi Muslims as either kafirs or heretics.


Please point out any mainstream religion that has not manifested violence (at one point or another) amongst its adherents going against the foundations of what their belief system supposedly dictates.

All the Abrahamic faiths (and their various denominations) have much to answer for when you stack up the bodies and rivers of blood that have been spilled in the name of "my god is better than yours".

Consider this counter-narrative about the general levels of violence:

http://www.npr.org/2016/07/16/48631...inker-says-the-world-is-becoming-less-violent

https://www.vox.com/2016/8/16/12486586/2016-worst-year-ever-violence-trump-terrorism

Despite The Headlines, Steven Pinker Says The World Is Becoming Less Violent

July 16, 20165:02 PM ET
Heard on All Things Considered
Psychologist Steven Pinker's book The Better Angels of Our Nature explains that the world is actually growing less violent, even though the media may give a different impression.

As you know, we've been following the attack on the boardwalk in Nice and the attempted coup in Turkey, both of which claimed dozens of lives. But those are just two of recent violent episodes that shocked the world. There was also the assault on a park in Bangladesh and on the airport in Brussels, the suicide bombings in Baghdad, not to mention the spate of mass shootings here in the U.S.

You can see why reasonable people might wonder if the world is falling apart or at least becoming more violent. So we posed that question to Harvard University psychology professor Steven Pinker. He says the answer is no, a thesis he put forth in his book "The Better Angels Of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined." We reached him in Cape Cod, Mass., via Skype, and I asked him to explain his argument.

STEVEN PINKER: The only way you can really answer the question - has violence gone up or down? - is to count how many violent incidents have there been as a proportion of the number of opportunities, and has that gone up or down over the course of history? And that's what I tried to do in the book. I looked at homicide, looked at war, looked at genocide, looked at terrorism. And in all cases, the long-term historical trend, though there are ups and downs and wiggles and spikes, is absolutely downward. The rate of violent crime in United States has fallen by more than half in just a decade. The rate of death in war fell by a factor of 100 over a span of 25 years.

MARTIN: And you say this is a worldwide phenomenon.

PINKER: Well, it's highly uneven. If you certainly choose the most violent parts of the world at any given time, they're going to be pretty violent. But if you count the number of parts of the world that are violent versus those that aren't, then you see that the world is becoming more peaceful. The impression that some kinds of violence have gone up over the last five years has some truth to it. Because of the Syrian civil war, the rate of death in warfare has drifted upward a little bit in the last five years. There has been a small increase in homicide in the United States in the last three years. But both of those figures are at a fraction of what they were in the '60s, '70S and '80s.

MARTIN: Why is the rate of violence going down around the world?

PINKER: There are a lot of individual whys because the decline of war, decline of homicide, decline of capital punishment, and so on take place over different time scales. If there's a common denominator - in the long run, violence really is irrational. I might get an advantage if I harm someone else for my benefit, but on the other hand, he feels the same way. And if we both are constantly trying to kill each other, we're both worse off. And certainly the police and government have had a huge role in reducing violence.

In the international arena, of course, we don't have a global police force. And there it is partly dependent on institutions of cooperation that make it more profitable to trade with other countries than to invade them. You don't kill your customers. The rise of democracy has probably made a difference. Democracies are less likely to wage war against each other. And there's also been a change in norms, just what decent countries do or don't do.

MARTIN: What would be the implications of embracing your point of view? You've heard, for example, the president sort of encouraging people not to panic. If we were to absorb that thinking, what do you think the implications of that might be?

PINKER: I think the president is absolutely right. For one thing, we must not assume that society is falling apart. We're pretty safe. Remember that terrorists in particular, really, by design, distort our view of violence. That's almost what terrorism means.

PINKER: The amount of damage that terrorists do in terms of the number of people they kill is a fraction of the number of people who die in ordinary day-to-day homicides.

But they have hit on a formula for guaranteeing news coverage and guaranteeing the attention of the world. I actually think that is a pathology of journalism that because it is so driven by events that happen in a discrete moment in time, it often ignores long-standing trends that transform the world that you may not notice on a day-to-day basis. It also creates an opportunity for violence entrepreneurs who can game the system by making a presence on the world stage knowing that it is the sudden, dramatic, violent events that make it on page one or get the most clicks.

MARTIN: That's Steven Pinker, professor of psychology at Harvard University, speaking to us from Cape Cod via Skype. Professor Pinker, thank you so much for speaking with us.

PINKER: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
 
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scroobal

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The issue to me is not the religion per se but the role of the traditional custodians of the Religion. The Roman Catholic Church has in its history undertook oppressive pogroms. The Hindus and their caste system ( albeit no direct violence but life long servitude, wife burning ), the Worst genocide in history in a buddhist culture of all places, etc. The new church and their proven record for exploiting the naive financially etc.

The Saudis created this mess with their Wahhabism expounded over 50 years around the World. The genie is truly out of the bottle.

The West just cannot handle it preferring to retain their hard earned liberalism and the rights of individuals over society at large.

Take the approach taken by Malaysia and Singapore over Islamist fundamentalist. Take the UAE. They need to protect Dubai and Abu Dhabi which they built painstakingly over 30 years. They appoint all preachers. They have people including their secret police watch over every single prayer for deviation. In a well known recent case, 41 people were charged in court for planning armed insurrection and terror. It was led by a preacher of a mosque. This group never discussed anything in the mosque and even did not acknowledge one another in the mosque and the public. The surprise was that the full transcripts of their conversations they held in private was produced in court. The ringleaders were sentenced for life. Ask France, UK and Belgium to go to this extent and they struggle.

Islam will have to go thru this evolution before they back with the mainstream. If their custodians don't fix, it will certainly evolve into a religion that will not be associated with peace. Its in the hands of the Saudis and they still prefer to protect their regal rights and then address the issue of religion.

Many people have the misconception that Islam is a religion of peace. It is not and the article below explains why. I like the way the author explains how Muslims who are serious about their religion will eventually come to a three forked road. Also of note is the point that one of the driving factors of radicalization is that with modern technology, it is now easy for a lay person to have access to the foundational texts of Islam. This is unlike the past of having to go through the filter of an iman. His book, Answering Jihad, is probably something policy makers should read.
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aurvandil

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Loyal
Don't think this is the answer. Islam has always flourished in the face of such persecution.

Take the approach taken by Malaysia and Singapore over Islamist fundamentalist. Take the UAE. They need to protect Dubai and Abu Dhabi which they built painstakingly over 30 years. They appoint all preachers. They have people including their secret police watch over every single prayer for deviation. In a well known recent case, 41 people were charged in court for planning armed insurrection and terror. It was led by a preacher of a mosque. This group never discussed anything in the mosque and even did not acknowledge one another in the mosque and the public. The surprise was that the full transcripts of their conversations they held in private was produced in court. The ringleaders were sentenced for life. Ask France, UK and Belgium to go to this extent and they struggle.
 
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