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Chitchat Hawkers Lose Money In Prudential Endowment Plan!

garlic

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I have my retirement goals in place and so far things had been progressing well.

I do not need any financial planners, insurance agents or bankers because I no longer believe in them :rolleyes:

All insurance agents started off as losers in life. They floated between jobs in life and reached a certain stage whereby insurance was their last resort, and you seriously want such people to advise you on how to plan your retirement? Not one insurance agent started his/her insurance job as a first-choice job option, not one. Somehow, along the way, some made it, some stick to it as there is little else to do.
 

garlic

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
My CPF SA pays roughly 4.5% per annum. Sinkies who took advantage of CPF SA years ago have withdrawn most of their CPF monies, leaving only the minimum sum to be slowly drawn down monthly.

It may surprise some of the samsters here that the minimum sum left behind by some of us will constitute only a small fraction of our actual CPF monies. The whining and bitching about the rise in MS affects mainly those who insist on wiping out their monthly CPF contributions to pay for housing.

There are some of us who currently have over $500k in our CPFs and that sum will continue to rise yearly by tens of thousands each year, thanks mainly to compound interest.

4.5% is shitty for an investment that one can never take out. Same scheme open in other countries will fail. I agree using CPF OA to pay for mortgage is the biggest financial mistake one can make, but so many are blind to it, it's incredible.

Instead of SA, contribute to an index for same amount of years. Once you hit retirement, take out 50% and convert to annuity, leave the other 50% in the index and rebalance to a less risky index. The ability to liquidate anytime you want is invaluable. CPF SA are for those aunties and uncles who have no clue what is going on, dont know how to use a computer and have many relatives whose kids are working as insurance agents.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
All insurance agents started off as losers in life. They floated between jobs in life and reached a certain stage whereby insurance was their last resort, and you seriously want such people to advise you on how to plan your retirement? Not one insurance agent started his/her insurance job as a first-choice job option, not one. Somehow, along the way, some made it, some stick to it as there is little else to do.

i knew a guy who studied architecture in NTU who sold insurance while in uni.is that consider a loser?
 

JohnTan

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
4.5% is shitty for an investment that one can never take out. Same scheme open in other countries will fail. I agree using CPF OA to pay for mortgage is the biggest financial mistake one can make, but so many are blind to it, it's incredible.

Instead of SA, contribute to an index for same amount of years. Once you hit retirement, take out 50% and convert to annuity, leave the other 50% in the index and rebalance to a less risky index. The ability to liquidate anytime you want is invaluable. CPF SA are for those aunties and uncles who have no clue what is going on, dont know how to use a computer and have many relatives whose kids are working as insurance agents.

CPF scheme would fail in other countries because they are poorly run by populist demagogues or hippy liberals who have no desire to balance budgets. PAP government is very conservative fiscally and has ensured that all our financial institutions adopt the same practice.

I know of enough rich people who have taken lots of money out of CPF, leaving behind only the MS. I would be one of them too as I have comfortably crossed the MS years ago.

4.5% returns per year every year for decades compounded is a very good return. It will work even better if you can build up a large principal base quickly.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
CPF scheme would fail in other countries because they are poorly run by populist demagogues or hippy liberals who have no desire to balance budgets. PAP government is very conservative fiscally and has ensured that all our financial institutions adopt the same practice.

I know of enough rich people who have taken lots of money out of CPF, leaving behind only the MS. I would be one of them too as I have comfortably crossed the MS years ago.

4.5% returns per year every year for decades compounded is a very good return. It will work even better if you can build up a large principal base quickly.

u know u keep talking about the rich,why do the rich need CPF for when they have much better investment options outside,CPF is meant to be a safety net for the poor and average man on the street,and how can u even claim CPF to be a success when currently it fails to provide for the retirement needs of 55 percent of singaporeans,do u see how many sinkies are having to work in mcdonalds,clean toilets and clear dishes and pick cardboard in their old age?i rather have a unbalanced budget and a pension scheme then this worthless cpf,CPF is nothing but a con scheme to push responsibility from the government to the people,u die ur problem!!!!pioneer generation my foot.
 

garlic

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
CPF scheme would fail in other countries because they are poorly run by populist demagogues or hippy liberals who have no desire to balance budgets. PAP government is very conservative fiscally and has ensured that all our financial institutions adopt the same practice.

I know of enough rich people who have taken lots of money out of CPF, leaving behind only the MS. I would be one of them too as I have comfortably crossed the MS years ago.

4.5% returns per year every year for decades compounded is a very good return. It will work even better if you can build up a large principal base quickly.

No, let's stick to numbers.. name me one other investment scheme that locks up the capital for life from as young as 18 when one works to 65 and pays only 4.5%.
4.5% is pittance and that premium is never justifiable for an investment which one can never liquidate at will. Good things and ideas that work in other countries will work in SG, uber and grab works well in SG, trading in forex works in SG, trading in equities works in SG, investment in funds, properties work in SG, and all investment ideas work well globally. So long as the numbers are right, it will work, regardless of country.

That policy that this hawker bought, however poorly thought out, however poor-performing (in hindsight) can be terminated anytime.

4.5% returns annually is very good.
4.5% returns annually for a one-way investment is not good
4.5% returns annually for a one-way investment that doesn't reward those with a larger base is senseless, period.
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
No, let's stick to numbers.. name me one other investment scheme that locks up the capital for life from as young as 18 when one works to 65 and pays only 4.5%.
4.5% is pittance and that premium is never justifiable for an investment which one can never liquidate at will. Good things and ideas that work in other countries will work in SG, uber and grab works well in SG, trading in forex works in SG, trading in equities works in SG, investment in funds, properties work in SG, and all investment ideas work well globally. So long as the numbers are right, it will work, regardless of country.

That policy that this hawker bought, however poorly thought out, however poor-performing (in hindsight) can be terminated anytime.

4.5% returns annually is very good.
4.5% returns annually for a one-way investment is not good
4.5% returns annually for a one-way investment that doesn't reward those with a larger base is senseless, period.

4.5% is pretty good actually,hard to think of investments that could beat that....3 to 10 yr US treasuries only pays 1 to 2 percent,20 to 30 years treasury maybe 2 to 3%,corporate investment grade bonds maybe 3 to 4.5%,high yield junk bonds maybe 6%,although rates have been falling for years,all these are subject to US taxes though.

Singapore Savings bonds about 2.23%,although these are 10 year and have step up interest,SG blue chips are about 3 to 5%,SG reits are about 5 to 9% yield,US equities about 8 to 9 percent,US small caps about 10 to 12 percent,US reits about 9 percent.the only way to get high yield is to take on more risk.while CPF is only subject to inflation risk and time,by the time u get to withdraw ur money 30 years later,even if ur cpf has grown to quite a large sum,the spending power might not be worth that much.u might find that 151k is not alot of money in the year 2047.

and also one more con, theres a cap limit on ur SA account,u are only allowed to have up to the minimum sum in it max?
 
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flatearther

Alfrescian
Loyal
:eek: I didn't heard about this before. thanks for this critical info.
I thought that cpf board welcome the more the merrier in OA.
you are right then I have to do an incremental transfer now .
Also, if your Special Account has not reached the "Full Retirement Sum" of "$166,000" this year:
www.cpf.gov.sg/members/schemes/schemes/retirement/retirement-sum-scheme
then you should do what you have been doing so far:
although the MS falls under non guaranteed, I will maintain it at the max cap every year by transferring OA to SA.
i will maintain S.A. to its cap every year by topping up.
before making your "voluntary contributions (VC)".
Otherwise, let's say you have $160,000 in your SA now, and you contribute $6,000 cash today to reach the maximum $166,000 (for this year) in your SA, you would not be allowed to transfer any funds from your OA to your SA this year.
Whereas if you transfer $6,000 from your OA to your SA first, even though you would have reached the maximum $166,000 in your SA, you can still contribute additional cash into your SA:
cpf.gov.sg/Members/FAQ/schemes/retirement/retirement-sum-scheme
"Transfer from Ordinary Account to Special Account
Q If I have met the current Full Retirement Sum in my Special Account (SA) after the transfer, will my future CPF contributions still be credited to my SA?
A Yes, part of your future contributions will continue to be credited to your SA. This is to help you build up more cash savings for retirement."

But the maximum amount that would be credited into your SA from your "VC" this year, according to:
cpf.gov.sg/Members/Schemes/schemes/other-matters/cpf-contribution-for-employees#Item1503
cpf.gov.sg/Assets/employers/Documents/Table%2011_Pte%20and%20Npen_CPF%20Allocation%20Rates%20Jan%202016.pdf
cpf.gov.sg/Members/FAQ/schemes/other-matters/cpf-contribution-for-employees#faq18099
cpf.gov.sg/eSvc/Web/Miscellaneous/ContributionAllocation/ContributionAllocationCalculator
would be: $37,740 ("CPF Annual Limit") x 0.2162 (Special Account "Ratio of Contribution" for those who are between 45 and 50) = $8,159.38
 
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Bad New Brown

Alfrescian
Loyal
well done and good for you. no choice I have to repeat this.
how dare people to be a financial planner. must be really thick skin. you dare to collect money from people and dare not guarantee returns.
insurance should be just bought over the counter .
bankers - see this title only better run far.
property agent are there to create more problems for buyers and sellers.


bro chootchiew, you are right.

I ever bought a 10 years endowment plan and when it's matures in 2010 I had a net losses of $1500.

The returns including a pathetic maturity bonus was less than my total premium paid over the 10 years :mad:

Bankers are haolian people that cannot last long their career.

Property agents are dishonest people..
 

Bad New Brown

Alfrescian
Loyal
All insurance agents started off as losers in life. They floated between jobs in life and reached a certain stage whereby insurance was their last resort, and you seriously want such people to advise you on how to plan your retirement? Not one insurance agent started his/her insurance job as a first-choice job option, not one. Somehow, along the way, some made it, some stick to it as there is little else to do.

A lot of ex-army regulars turned into insurance agents when they are no longer wanted :biggrin:
 

garlic

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
i knew a guy who studied architecture in NTU who sold insurance while in uni.is that consider a loser?

Yep, he chose a field of study in which he had absolutely zero interest, he only entered because that's where his grades could take him or God forbid, that's where his parents decided that was best for him. To me, staying in a job that one has absolutely zero interest in, is a loser, even if it is a glamorous or prestigous job.

Making ownself feel shitty everyday and dragging ownself to work in an environment which you have absolutely zero interest in just because no guts to effect change, i simply cannot have respect for such a person. If your friend subsequently chose another line, then he is courageous and going against all norms.

Those who dare, change.
 

jw5

Moderator
Moderator
Loyal
All insurance agents started off as losers in life. They floated between jobs in life and reached a certain stage whereby insurance was their last resort, and you seriously want such people to advise you on how to plan your retirement? Not one insurance agent started his/her insurance job as a first-choice job option, not one. Somehow, along the way, some made it, some stick to it as there is little else to do.

These days, there are A LOT of young insurance agents, who start their first job in this field, probably because of their perception of the potential upside in earnings. However, the reality is that very few get to reach that upside. :(
 

JohnTan

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
u know u keep talking about the rich,why do the rich need CPF for when they have much better investment options outside,CPF is meant to be a safety net for the poor and average man on the street,

CPF is a great safety net for the average and the poor. However, poor advice had been given out by some PAP leaders encouraging sinkies to buy their HDB without any cash, aka pay monthly mortgage using CPF only. Hence, many sinkies have very little in their CPF accounts and do not maximum the compounding effect offered by CPF. They were adviced poorly.

and how can u even claim CPF to be a success when currently it fails to provide for the retirement needs of 55 percent of singaporeans,do u see how many sinkies are having to work in mcdonalds,clean toilets and clear dishes and pick cardboard in their old age?

Try living in South Korea as a senior citizen. You would have to offer handjobs and other sexual services in order to survive. I believe CNA recently did a feature on that.

i rather have a unbalanced budget and a pension scheme then this worthless cpf,CPF is nothing but a con scheme to push responsibility from the government to the people,u die ur problem!!!!pioneer generation my foot.

Then we will end up like Greece. Pension schemes only work when budgets are balanced. Otherwise, it would just crash and all you have are bank runs and vapourized promises of free cash for life. The Greeks have been experiencing this for years. They die their own problem. Their government doesn't have money.
 

garlic

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Since the objective is "help Singaporeans with retirement", liberate the market for this then. Allow competition from private sector, while retaining CPF board's SA, OA, MS, RA, everything. Allow Great Eastern, Income, DBS, OCBC, UOB and two other foreign banks to allow CPF members to have a choice and see what other financial institutions will throw to entice such monies to their accounts. Start with SA, after MS in OA are met and those not yet reach 55.

Allow these FIs to accept premiums every month till the CPF members retire at 65 and cannot liquidate come hell or highwater, afterwhich start giving dribs and drabs when they retire, all same requirements and criteria as CPF board. You can expect higher than 4.5% for sure.

"CPF scheme" is just a term, any FIs can replicate it and offer the same returns or even better.
 
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AhMeng

Alfrescian (Inf- Comp)
Asset
17795857_10212258543995950_4912340067030654936_n.jpg


17796358_10212258145305983_5432459219171178040_n.jpg


My dad bought this prudential savings plan twenty years back and he was supposed to get 40k+ this year during March. However, they've only sent my dad a cheque for 20k+ (the initial investment is 30k+).
My family went up to the prudential office to lodge a complain and to enquire as to why the company isn't giving the full sum as promised on the contract. The company dismissed my dad with a convenient bullshit excuse " our company isn't earning much so that's the sum you'll have ".

Is this ethically right? What's the point for anyone to save with prudential if you're going to make a loss in the end after 20 years? That money could've been many times more if my dad invested in other financial instruments and inflation.


Is there any case if we were to sue them? My parents are just Hawkers, I don't understand why you've to make the old generation suffer so much
Update: it's an endowment plan.

Update2 : there has been no withdrawal made and payment has been made regularly since 1994. The agent who sold this policy to my dad is no longer in prudential so it's more troublesome too. I've also attached another pic regarding the loss of $ (which I've no idea what it is)

Update3: Hi there! Didn't expect to receive so much help from everyone. I've already sent the documentations to my friends who're from diff insurance agencies and they're looking into it to see if they're able to help. I've also translated the knowledge I've learnt from everyone to my dad but we'll have to wait till Monday to see how the situation unfolds (I was told that someone from prudential will be contacting us, we don't know how it'll go but we'll see).

For those who're not providing any useful advice at all and is attacking my dad and I, please know that none of us expected this to happen. The term insurance is a very new concept to him in the 90s. Just because you're literate now doesn't mean that everyone is back then in the 90s. Your parents could've bought similiar policies for their retirement plan back then, and they could've ended up in a similar fate if they've an unethical agent whose mind is prob only on their KPI, serving them.

Once again, thanks everyone for your advice and concern regarding the situation and I really appreciate it. Have a great weekend ahead!

- More at AllSingaporeStuff.com https://www.allsingaporestuff.com/article/hawkers-cannot-get-back-their-money-insurance-plan
FB: http://fb.com/allsgstuff
So what is the outcome of this insurance scam? Nothing?
 

sweetiepie

Alfrescian
Loyal
Where is the benefit illustration?
There are different types of endowment plans, this looks like one of those with guaranteed and non guaranteed returns, $42000 is the projected returns. What he got back is the guaranteed portion but the non guaranteed made a loss.

Does his policy also come with any riders?
KNN are there any endowment plan where the principal paid is non guaranteed KNN then only ter nao hawker will buy KNN if hawker never got scam then my uncle worry KNN
 

AhMeng

Alfrescian (Inf- Comp)
Asset
KNN are there any endowment plan where the principal paid is non guaranteed KNN then only ter nao hawker will buy KNN if hawker never got scam then my uncle worry KNN
Prudential never issue statement on this case? Big organisation keep quiet after being accused of "cheating" old hawker of savings?
 

sweetiepie

Alfrescian
Loyal
For those who're not providing any useful advice at all and is attacking my dad and I, please know that none of us expected this to happen. The term insurance is a very new concept to him in the 90s. Just because you're literate now doesn't mean that everyone is back then in the 90s. Your parents could've bought similiar policies for their retirement plan back then, and they could've ended up in a similar fate if they've an unethical agent
KNN now or even 10 20years later your dad will still fall for other scams KNN
 
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