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HDB flat price increase due to FTs is only 1/2 the truth

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Many people blame FTs for coming here and jacking up the prices of the HDB flats. I am no lovers of FTs, but in this case, they are only the scape goat of the PAP. The real reason behind the increase in price is simply because the HDB is a monopoly and they can charge anything they want. And they want to and need to make a large profit to help offset all the GIC and Temasek losses.

People use anecdotal evidence to say the large influx of FTs caused all these problems. The HDB is less than forthcoming with statistics to back this up, and really, they will not do it anyway. It is acknowledge that FTs now comprised 36% of the Singapore population. But did they really cause the upsurge in HDB prices? Lets examine the composition of these FTs.

According to Wong Kan Seng, there are 1.3 million non residents living here. In other words, these people are not PRs and they are not citizens, they are just transients. These people do not qualify to buy a HDB flat, whether it is resale or new. So, we forget about them.

According to the DPM from 2000 -2008, an average annual number of about 44,000 FTs were granted PRs. Now of these 44,000 FTs per year, not all have the desire to purchase HDB flats. Indeed, many of the 44,000 are children of parents who obtained PRs. Most do not have the means to purchase HDB flats due to the lower wages they accept. In addition, if they are single, they do not qualify under the HDB family unit rule, and cannot buy anyway. The PRs that are paid well will buy a private a condo which has much less restrictions. In fact, PRs are not allowed to buy new HDB flats anyway. In order to buy a new flat, u have to be a citizen or one the applicants needs to be a PR. The ICA annual report indicates that only 22,000 people were granted citizenships in 2008, 16,000 in 2007 and 13,900 in 2006. Again whether these new citizens have the desire, financial ability, family unit or any other eligibility requirement to purchase is really in doubt. Did some of them buy HDB flats, sure they did. But in the numbers to cause a such a price increase, not likely. My estimate that new PRs/Citizens accounted for maybe 3000 flats a year, both new and resale.

Why than the increase in price? From 1981 to 1985, HDB build an average of 37,800 flats every year. From 1986 to 1990, they build an average of 24,000 units a year. From 1991 to 1995, they build an average of 19,800 units. From 1996-2000, they build an average of 31,600 flats a year. From 2001 to 2005, they build an average of only 11,000 flats a year. In 2006, only 2733 flats were build and in 2007, only 5063 flats were build. This begs the question of why so few flats were build. How can multi million dollar ministers be so myopic that a paltry 5000 flats be build in a year. U can see the trend was to deliberately build fewer flats every year. Of these 5063 flats build, not all are for sale, as the HDB builds flats to rent also. So, the percentage actually for sale is lower than these already low numbers. Even if there were no FTs allowed into S'pore the number of flats build cannot keep up with the natural population growth.

The wholesale growth in FTs exacerbated the situation. Here, we have 1.3 million non residents running around, they cannot buy flats, but they need a place to live. True, some of them are housed in company dorms, but others have to rent. Rental prices have jumped sky high as a result of this demand. Many Singaporeans, NOT FTs, viewed this an an opportunity to profit by purchasing more than one flat. They might for example purchase a private condo and than a HDB flat, renting out the flat for high rents to cover their mortgages. In other words, they are speculating. The HDB also contributes to this because now, with the deliberate shortage they have caused, the resale market is going through the roof, and hence justify their price increase in new flats. They know the the influx of FTs were on its way. They were told the PRs and Citizens would increase every year, yet they build so few units.

So, I think the blame on FTs is wholely misplaced. An examination of what statistics there is indicate the combination of HDB and citizen/PR speculators are to blame. The HDB and the Minister for National Development Mah Bow Tan (who overseas the HDB), need to explain how on earth they can build so few units given such a large advance warning of the govt's. FT policy.
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
You wrote a whole essay on FT and rising HDB prices because one joker made that claim about FT and prices. Just write the following and people will get the message.

"The fundamental issue is affordable flats available to Singaporeans within a reasonable timeframe. The blame falls squarely on Mah Bow Tan and HDB if they can't meet this criteria. Acceptable excuses are things like shortage of sand, building materials etc.

FTs are certainly a factor but its more in the realm of poor planning. We will be in the same position if there are zero FTs and HDB failed to forecast demand."
 

littlefish

Alfrescian
Loyal
Rich foreigners/PRs can buy condos (and many rent them out) and PRs can also buy resale HDB. This creates a demand and drives up the prices for these properties. This in turn drives the developers to bid higher for land to build private residential properties. The resale HDB market is affected as PRs who can't afford private apartments will buy resale HDB. As new HDB flats are priced in relation to the market, there is a correlation in the price movement. So there is still truth in foreigners driving up prices.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
... which means flats are no longer affordable and take longer time to deliver and that is due to poor planning. Who is to blame - authorities for failing to adjust the HDB policies, restricting FTs etc.

Point is - aim at the Govt for poor planning. This is the 2nd time that the HDB property sector has gone wayward. First time was in the 90s when they oversupplied and prices slumped. They had to mothball many brand new blocks. They converted 3 room flats in new blocks into 5 room improved flat by knocking the partion between and the flkat ended up


Rich foreigners/PRs can buy condos (and many rent them out) and PRs can also buy resale HDB. This creates a demand and drives up the prices for these properties. This in turn drives the developers to bid higher for land to build private residential properties. The resale HDB market is affected as PRs who can't afford private apartments will buy resale HDB. As new HDB flats are priced in relation to the market, there is a correlation in the price movement. So there is still truth in foreigners driving up prices.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Rich foreigners/PRs can buy condos (and many rent them out) and PRs can also buy resale HDB. This creates a demand and drives up the prices for these properties. This in turn drives the developers to bid higher for land to build private residential properties. The resale HDB market is affected as PRs who can't afford private apartments will buy resale HDB. As new HDB flats are priced in relation to the market, there is a correlation in the price movement. So there is still truth in foreigners driving up prices.

Let me ask u this. If the HDB had build 30,000 flats a year for the last 5 years instead of 5,000 or 2700, do you think foreigners would still have an effect on the price. I think not.
 

crazyhendrix

Alfrescian
Loyal
Funny that we are paying a mirrion dollar salary when he can't even balance supply and demand to keep flats affordable.

Damage is done.

If they allow hdb flat prices to fall, there's going to be an outcry from home owners. If hdb prices keep going up disproportionately to our wages, there's going to be an outcry too.

Next GE is not going to be easy for them unless they pull every tricks out of thir bag. cooling day, smaller GRCs for damage control. 10 million integration funds, events for the new citizens to shore up new support base, fixed the oppositions, etc.

At the end of the day, singaporeans will be the one losing out. Short term future of Singapore seems pretty dim, but it's always darkest before dawn.

Vote those fools out.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Funny that we are paying a mirrion dollar salary when he can't even balance supply and demand to keep flats affordable.

Damage is done.

If they allow hdb flat prices to fall, there's going to be an outcry from home owners. If hdb prices keep going up disproportionately to our wages, there's going to be an outcry too.

Next GE is not going to be easy for them unless they pull every tricks out of thir bag. cooling day, smaller GRCs for damage control. 10 million integration funds, events for the new citizens to shore up new support base, fixed the oppositions, etc.

At the end of the day, singaporeans will be the one losing out. Short term future of Singapore seems pretty dim, but it's always darkest before dawn.

Vote those fools out.

Also, don't forget that the Lee and Kwa family are one of the largest propery owners in the country. Even more so when u add in all the properties owned by elites. They are not interested in seeing prices drop at all, as it will negatively impact their portfolio.
 

littlefish

Alfrescian
Loyal
Let me ask u this. If the HDB had build 30,000 flats a year for the last 5 years instead of 5,000 or 2700, do you think foreigners would still have an effect on the price. I think not.

They will still have an effect on the price as long as the price is fixed by HDB (a monopoly) and if HDB refuses to lower the price to sell off excess stocks. As to whether it is the fault of foreigners for increasing the prices, I will agree that the government must take the lion's share of the blame for not controlling or mitigating the problem.
 

gone4good

Alfrescian
Loyal
A leader is someone with the vision and ability to make plans to anticipate future development. Failure to do so would mean that he is no leader or does not qualify to be one. Running a multi-billion ministry with plenty of support in various departments and this particular Minister can come up with an excuse that "they cannot anticipate such a simple scenario/situation" is not acceptable. Why do we need to pay them such a gross salary to make a schoolboy error.

If he cannot lead and this apply to others as well, then do not confer themselves as leaders. They should be followers or in other words 'Doer' and take a cut in their salary.
 

Watchman

Alfrescian
Loyal
A leader is someone with the vision and ability to make plans to anticipate future development. Failure to do so would mean that he is no leader or does not qualify to be one. Running a multi-billion ministry with plenty of support in various departments and this particular Minister can come up with an excuse that "they cannot anticipate such a simple scenario/situation" is not acceptable. Why do we need to pay them such a gross salary to make a schoolboy error.

You can make plans to anticipate future developments.

But you sure cannot expect the way and all who can react .

Not unless you designate a route that we cannot wander far off or a route with utter control and rigidity, such as your policies and regime .
 

saratogas

Alfrescian
Loyal
Its Demand and Supply issue, if Maborlow Tan do his job properly, sinkies wouldn't have to pay huge COV for HDB.

Gahment where is the Planning? OverCrowding is next!
 

gone4good

Alfrescian
Loyal
You can make plans to anticipate future developments.

But you sure cannot expect the way and all who can react .

Not unless you designate a route that we cannot wander far off or a route with utter control and rigidity, such as your policies and regime .

That is the reason why we need planning and we are not talking about a one-man team or a few members. We are talking about a full Ministry of manpower (or talents as they always called themselves) not able to anticipate the situation. In this instance, it is just not acceptable. Some mistakes are genuine and can be forgiven but not others. In this case, they fall under the inconceivable mistakes.
 

gone4good

Alfrescian
Loyal
That is the reason why we need planning and we are not talking about a one-man team or a few members. We are talking about a full Ministry of manpower (or talents as they always called themselves) not able to anticipate the situation. In this instance, it is just not acceptable. Some mistakes are genuine and can be forgiven but not others. In this case, they fall under the inconceivable mistakes.

Yes, i agree with you that he can have the benefits of doubt in this instance. But in future he should bear in mind that he is always in public scrutiny as he is a prominent figure in local politics and should not be writing out replies as if he is just a citizen. He MUST constantly reminds himself that he is representing the GOVT at all times since he has made the decision to enter politics
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
They will still have an effect on the price as long as the price is fixed by HDB (a monopoly) and if HDB refuses to lower the price to sell off excess stocks. As to whether it is the fault of foreigners for increasing the prices, I will agree that the government must take the lion's share of the blame for not controlling or mitigating the problem.

This is the point of why I started this thread. I think too many people running around blaming the FTs. Actually, I was also blaming them initially, but after doing some research, I realise the PAP was mostly at fault. I mean who the hell builds only 2700 flats in one recent year?
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Yes, i agree with you that he can have the benefits of doubt in this instance. But in future he should bear in mind that he is always in public scrutiny as he is a prominent figure in local politics and should not be writing out replies as if he is just a citizen. He MUST constantly reminds himself that he is representing the GOVT at all times since he has made the decision to enter politics

Like that, u can say that we have to give all them the benefit of the doubt for every mistake they make. Stupid right? U have to look at the collective works of the govt. They have made so many mistakes, that it has gone beyond the opoint of benefit of doubt.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
You wrote a whole essay on FT and rising HDB prices because one joker made that claim about FT and prices. Just write the following and people will get the message.

"The fundamental issue is affordable flats available to Singaporeans within a reasonable timeframe. The blame falls squarely on Mah Bow Tan and HDB if they can't meet this criteria. Acceptable excuses are things like shortage of sand, building materials etc.

FTs are certainly a factor but its more in the realm of poor planning. We will be in the same position if there are zero FTs and HDB failed to forecast demand."

I just want to back it up with stats, and the startling fact that with all the importation of FTs and natural population growth, the HDB can slow flat construction down to a crawl. SOmething is definitely amiss. U cannot blame it solely on poor planning. In fact, when u examine the HDB, they are one of the most forward agencies in the manner that they acquire the land, make exorbitant profits, and arrange creative financing to sell their overpriced products. This is a DELEIBERATE ACT, and not poor planning.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
You have a point. Its obvious that they are trying to prop up the GDP or keep the high growth intact and the only solution is increasing the population. Nobody is coming here unless they can get jobs and houses. That is the policy.

The poor planning part comes in when they are unable to accommodate both the citizens and the new arrivals so they pander to the foreigners. They know that Singaporeans can't leave.

So when you attack the housing policy you go for the poor planning part. And you go for Mah Bow Tan. When you attack the policy of FTs gaining preference, you attack LHL, the Cabinet etc.

We got to learn how to sharpen our attacks for the GE. If not the message is lost. Forummer Glaringly has difficulty grasping the issue so he took the Dubai example in error. In Dubai, foreigners are there for only work. They can never be citizens. The citizens of Dubai are very well looked after and protected. I don't think he knows what Dubai is about.




I just want to back it up with stats, and the startling fact that with all the importation of FTs and natural population growth, the HDB can slow flat construction down to a crawl. SOmething is definitely amiss. U cannot blame it solely on poor planning. In fact, when u examine the HDB, they are one of the most forward agencies in the manner that they acquire the land, make exorbitant profits, and arrange creative financing to sell their overpriced products. This is a DELEIBERATE ACT, and not poor planning.
 

Glaringly

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
We got to learn how to sharpen our attacks for the GE. If not the message is lost. Forummer Glaringly has difficulty grasping the issue so he took the Dubai example in error. In Dubai, foreigners are there for only work. They can never be citizens. The citizens of Dubai are very well looked after and protected. I don't think he knows what Dubai is about.

http://www.sammyboy.com/showthread.php?t=48517

I raise a question in the above thread and was responded by this thread and the comments. I will leave forumers to draw their own conclusion, and has no intention to response any further.

I am here to stick pins into PAP ass. Thank you for reminding me on that.:wink:
 
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