Atheist Ministers Struggle With Leading the Faithful

[fishbuff]

http://www.clergyproject.org/news/2...ministers-struggle-with-leading-the-faithful/

“I am an atheist,” says “Jack,” a Southern Baptist with more than 20 years in ministry.

“I live out my life as if there is no God,” says “Adam,” who is part of the pastoral staff of a small evangelical church in the Bible Belt.

The two, who asked that their real identities be protected, are pastors who have lost their faith. And these two men, who have built their careers and lives around faith, say they now feel trapped, living a lie.

“I spent the majority of my life believing and pursuing this religious faith, Christianity,” Jack said. “And to get to this point in my life, I just don’t feel like I believe anymore.”

“The more I read the Bible, the more questions I had,” Jack said. “The more things didn’t make sense to me — what it said — and the more things didn’t add up.”

Jack said that 10 years ago, he started to feel his faith slipping away. He grew bothered by inconsistencies regarding the last days of Jesus’ life, what he described as the improbability of stories like “Noah’s Ark” and by attitudes expressed in the Bible regarding women and their place in the world.

“Reading the Bible is what led me not to believe in God,” he said.

He said it was difficult to continue to work in ministry. “I just look at it as a job and do what I’m supposed to do,” he said. “I’ve done it for years.”

Adam said his initial doubts about God came as he read the work of the so-called New Atheists — popular authors like the prominent scientist Richard Dawkins. He said the research was intended to help him defend his faith.

“My thinking was that God is big enough to handle any questions that I can come up with,” he said but that did not happen.

“I realized that everything I’d been taught to believe was sort of sheltered,” Adam said, “and never really looked at secular teaching or other philosophies. … I thought, ‘Oh my gosh. Am I believing the wrong things? Have I spent my entire life and my career promoting something that is not true?’”

He said he feared for his salvation and soul. “In that point where I realized I was losing my faith yet I still feared for my own salvation, I asked God to take my life before I lost my faith,” Adam said.

Adam said he now considers himself an “atheistic agnostic.” “I don’t think we can prove that there is not a God or that there is a God,” he said. “I live out my life as if there is no God.”

He and Jack said that when speaking to parishioners, they tried to stick to the sections of the Bible that they still believed in — the parts about being a good person. Both said that they would like to leave their jobs though they can’t afford to.

“I want to get out of the position that I’m in as quickly as I can because I try to be a person of integrity and character,” Adam said. “With the economy the way it is, with my lack of marketable skills other than a seminary education, it has me in a tough spot.”

Atheism Secret ‘Going to Be Devastating’

Jack said that his secret left him feeling isolated but that he would certainly lose a lot of friends when he professed to no longer being a Christian. His wife doesn’t know and he said it was possible he could lose her as well.

“It’s going to be very confusing for her,” Jack said. “It’s going to be very devastating and it’s going to take us a while to work through it.”

Adam said his wife knew that he was struggling with his faith but not that he had lost it completely.

“It’s a very tough situation to be in,” he said. “I can’t think of another career that is so dramatically affected by a change in one’s opinions or thoughts.”

“At first I feared if I lose my faith, I’m gonna become some terrible person,” Adam said. “As I lost my faith … I realized that really had no bearing on who I am and my character and my actions. I live no differently than I did when I was a fervent believer.”

Adam and Jack were included in a report by philosopher Daniel Dennett, a professor at Tufts University and well-known atheist, and his co-researcher, Linda LaScola. They are continuing their research into non-believing clergy. ABC News contacted the two pastors through Dennett and LaScola, verified their identities and positions, and interviewed them separately.

 

[fishbuff]

Preachers Who Are Not Believers


http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP08122150.pdf

here's an excerpt from the doc above;

Wes, the Methodist – Making Clergy Obsolete
Wes, age 42, has been the pastor of a liberal Methodist church in the Northwest for
10 years. He has a 10 year old son and is married to a schoolteacher who shares his views
about religion. Wes and his wife are raising their son to recognize that Bible stories are not
factual:

And so when we talk to him about Bible stories, we remind him constantly
that these are just stories. These are st ories; think about them in no different
way than you would any other stories.

Wes was raised Baptist in the South and attended a liberal Christian college and seminary
before moving west. Although he rejected his family’s conservative views as a young adult,
he was positively involved in the life of the church in his youth:

I felt very surrounded by people who we re concerned about me. I was very
comfortable in that environment. And I suppose I’ve always been, perhaps,
most comfortable in a church environment. I flourished there. I was the one
that answered all the questions. I cared about all this kind of stuff … Bible
trivia. It made me think I knew the Bible.

From liberal to literal
Once in college, he was surprised by what he learned:

I went to college thinking Adam and Eve were real people. And I can
remember really wrestling with that when my Old Testament professor was
pointing out the obvious myths and how they came to be. And I kind of
joked at the time that I prayed my way all the way to atheism. Because in
the early days, it was wrestli ng with God; praying to God.


Evolutionary Psychology – ISSN 1474-7049 – Volume 8(1). 2010. -125-
Preachers who are not believers

Wes decided to go on to seminary because the credits he would r eceive there could be
applied either to PhD studies in the philosophy of religion or to a career in the clergy.
Looking back on it, he realizes that he also felt limited in his choices:

If you finish your junior year, if you’re going to declare a new major, now
you’re setting yourself back. And I’ll be the first to admit that my
upbringing placed limitations on what I thought was possible for me, which
is something I’ve sworn to not do with my son.… Not that I believe in such
things, but it was almost predestined that I would be a minister because of
my role as a kid in church, my parents’ role.… I’d love to be a scientist. I
think that would be wonderful.

When in seminary, he noticed the differing reactions that his classmates had to the
scholarly information they were re ceiving about biblical history:

I would guess if there were 30 people in the archeology class, there would
be 25% of them who would become ve ry defensive and argumentative with
the professor. And probably only one or two of the 30 would be open to it.
The rest would just not say much.

Eventually, he decided to pursue a career in the ministry. It seemed like a natural fit:

So I kind of thought, well, you know I really know religion; I know
Christianity. It’s been in my blood. And I suddenly felt like there was a
certain strand of Christianity that I could identify with. And the Methodist
Church --- was different … really, it’s a very progressive church. So I felt at
home there.

Wes has had some qualms about his role as a non-believing minister, but overall he thinks
he is being true to the very worthy mission of developing liberal, democratic values among
his church members:

My first few years of doing this were wracked with, “God, should I be doing
this? Is this ---? Am I being ---? Am I posing? Am I being less than
authentic; less than honest?” … And, I really wrestled with it and to some
degree still. But not nearly as much.

I will be the first to admit that I see Christianity as a means to an end, not as
an end unto itself. And the end is very basically, a kind of liberal,
democratic values. So I will use Christianity sometimes against itself to try
to lead people to that point. But th ere’s so much within the Christian
tradition that itself influenced the development of those liberal values, you
know. They didn’t arise through secular means. They came out of some
religious stuff.… I could couch all that in very secular language. If we were
in a college setting, I would. But we’re in a religious setting, so I use the
religious language.



Preachers who are not believers

Demythologizing religion
Wes thinks that what separates him from people who identify themselves as atheists
is his openness to using the word “God”:

The difference between me and an atheist is basically this: it’s not about the
existence of God. It’s: do we believe th at there is room for the use of the
word “God” in some context? And a thoroughly consistent atheist would
say, “No. We just need to get over that word just like we need to get over
concepts of race. We quit using that word, we’d be better off.” Whereas I
would say I agree with that in a great many cases, but I still think the word
has some value in some contexts. So I think the word God can be used very
expressively in some of my more med itative modes. I’ve thought of God as
a kind of poetry that’s written by human beings. As a way of dealing with
the fact that we’re finite; we’re vulnerable.

He says he is happy in ministry, knowing that it provide s a flexible and comfortable
lifestyle and an opportunity to positively influence people’s lives. Although he thinks that
religion will be around a long time, he sees that part of his role is to help make his job
obsolete. He thinks many of his liberal Christian colleagues have similar views, which they
would express if they ha d a suitable opportunity:

My colleagues here are very educated, very well read, and do not believe the
significance of Christianity lies in whethe r it’s literally true. They do believe
that it is metaphorically describing something th at is real. Something
spiritual that we cannot get at, that is a presence in this universe. That’s
where they differ from me. But the way we use the language is going to be
very similar, and the reason it’s going to be similar is that our goals are the
same. Our goals are to help people become freer than they were before, and
to be transformed. So if becoming a Christian transforms a person’s life for
the better, I have no problem with th em becoming a Christian. But I also
have no problem with it if it means be traying Christianity, if that’s what
helps them. And I think many of my colleagues, if they were in this kind of
environment [confidential interview], would admit to that. They wouldn’t,
though, in front of their bishops.

They’re very liberal. They’ve been de-mythologized, I’ll say that. They
don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead literally. They don’t believe Jesus
was born of a virgin. They don’t believe all those things that would cause a
big stir in their churches. But that’s not uncommon in mainline
denominations, or even in the Catholic Church. I mean, you have a
professional class of people, basically, who are working with an
organization of non-professionals.

Coming Out to a Friend
Wes has confided his non-belief with one of his church members. He and Wes became close friends while working on various church projects over a period of several
years:

We kind of felt each other out over the course of time … just a little bit of
self-revelation at a time. And we got to the point, you know, where he felt
comfortable saying things to me.

Perhaps he was the one that maybe kind of initiated asking questions, trying
to figure out what I thought of some things. I can’t remember exactly what
he said, but he brought it up: “Do you think there is a being out there
somewhere?” And at that point, I knew him well enough, so I said “Oh, no.”
He absolutely died laughing! And he said, “You know, I’ve really been
wrestling with that myself, but I’ve never met anybody who just said, “Oh,
of course not!” He hasn’t been privy to all my years of struggle. He was just
shocked that I was just so matter-of-fact.

Offering Community
Wes thinks he is especially effective at offering community to people who doubt
they would fit into a Christian community:

I’m interested in community, relationships. And I believe the argument
could be made that that’s what Jesus was interested in anyway. So I can do
that at the local church level. And I’m also there for people who are
recovering Christians. There are a lot of people out there who have been
damaged by Christianity. And they feel guilty that they’re not a Christian ---
or that they’re not practicing or what ever. I’m their ideal pastor, because
they can come to me and be told that they don’t need to feel guilty.
Rick, the UCC Campus Minister – Social Justice Through the Church
Rick is a 72 year old United Church of Christ (UCC) minister receiving a full
pension from the church and a monthly stipend for his part-time work as a campus minister
at an academically top-ranked university. He has served in campus ministry throughout his
long career because it has allowed him to pur sue his interests in social causes. While
working on various campuses across the country, he has worked in civil rights, gay rights
and women’s rights, including as sisting women who were seek ing abortions before they
were legalized nationally. He specifically chose the UCC denomination because it had “no
forced doctrine,” offered “a lot of freedom to believe what you want to believe,” and had a
large and active social justice mission.

 

[fishbuff]

http://voices.yahoo.com/how-converted-christianity-atheism-9048295.html

Growing up in a Christian family, I became a Christian at a young age. I attended church every Sunday and went to a private Christian school K-12th and then attended a Christian College. Bible classes were mandatory throughout my 16 years of education and combine that with church every Sunday, I was very confident in my knowledge of the Bible. However, like most Christians, I still had questions about God, but I accepted I was not going to understand everything and that I needed to just put my faith in Him.

After a few years of being out of school, I found a church I really enjoyed going to. It was a young church and had an incredible worship band. It was like going to a Christian Coldplay concert every Sunday. The music was so powerful it gave me chills, and would reconfirm any doubts I had about God because of how it made me feel.

A few months after discovering this church, I stumbled upon a debate between a Christian and an atheist on YouTube. I decided to watch it and remember thinking to myself, "this should be interesting; how is this atheist going to possibly debate God doesn't exist." I was excited to see how the Christian would tear apart the atheist arguments. However, this never happened, turned out the atheist made better arguments than the Christian. He mentioned verses in the Bible I had never heard of before and they clearly did not fit it with my knowledge of who God is. The verses were about God giving rules for slavery; I had never come across these verses in my many years of studying the Bible. These were damaging verses, if God was moral, how could he condone these actions?

(Here are just a few of those verses: Lev 25:44-46, Deut 20:10-15, 1 Cor 14:34, 1 Tim 2:9-15, Duet 22:23-24, Duet 22:28-29, Exodus 21:7-11)

I was really confused about what I had just witnessed, but thought to myself it must have been a fluke; maybe the Christian was not an experienced debater. I was torn, should I just mark it down as a fluke and forget about it, or should I continue watching more debates? If I continue to question this I may not like what I find, was I willing to accept the results even if it meant I discovered I was wrong? I realized I rather know the truth rather than believe what makes me feel good, and if Christianity is right than I will know more about God than I did before and it will only strengthen my relationship with Him going forward. So I decided to watch more debates along with researching the verses that atheist were bringing up.

During this process I discovered a cable access television show called the Atheist Experience, where anyone can call in to discuss or debate why they believe what they do whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu etc. Out of the hundreds of episodes I watched within a span of a few months, not once did I feel the theist caller won an argument. I had never thought about it before but I realized why there aren't Christian shows where viewers could call in to debate. If Christianity was correct, a show like that would help convert more to Christianity, but I realized it was because Christians didn't have valid reasons for their beliefs and when challenged they didn't have much to stand on. Christianity makes sense when the pastor can cherry pick the verses he preaches about and ignore those that are contradictory. It started to resemble more of a cult to me. Pastors I talked to seemed very interested in discussing these issues with me, however once we reached a certain point they were no longer available to continue the conversation. I realized I had to come to the conclusion that my beliefs were not valid.

Was I depressed after realizing that heaven was no longer in my future or that God was no longer going to be a part of my life? Yes, but only for a minute. Sixty seconds later, I realized I never had a chance to go to a place called heaven and God was never influencing my life in the first place. It was just an illusion. After realizing that, I was thankful I discovered this now so that I could live the rest of my life delusion free.

It was a hard but rewarding process of getting to the point where I knew my beliefs were false, but the hardest part was yet to come. I had many friends and family that were Christian and knowing what I did I didn't want them to continue living a delusion either, so I started telling them about the verses I had discovered and wanted to discuss the issues with them. I even wrote a 15 page paper on why I came to this conclusion to help get the conversations started. I thought they would be thankful I was exposing these issues and showing them that Christianity wasn't true. I was wrong! I didn't realized how emotionally attached people were to their beliefs; I was emotionally attached but I didn't let emotion overcome reason. I thought people followed their religion because they felt they had valid reasons for believing not because they were emotionally attached. I knew that not everyone I talked to about this would lose their faith, but I thought maybe a few would. Still to this day, no one has lost their faith due to me and that's fine. But I was amazed at how strong of a hold emotions have on people's beliefs, and realized this is how we can live in a world full of numerous religions yet everyone still claim theirs is correct. Discovering this was much harder for me than discovering that God didn't exist.

Losing my faith has made it awkward at times between friends and family, but I much rather live in reality than fantasy and this has made me a stronger person. I no longer pray for things to improve, I try to improve them myself. I see the world and life now for what it is and it is even more valuable to me now than before. I no longer see things as good and evil, but as rational and irrational. I wouldn't say I now follow atheism, as that makes it sound like atheism is its own religion; I actually don't like the word atheism because it doesn't mean anything. I am atheist and now free from religion and can make decisions for myself based on logic, reason, and compassion. I am able to think for myself more now than I did before and for that I am very thankful.

 

[Psalm23]

.....Growing up in a Christian family, I became a Christian at a young age. I attended church every Sunday and went to a private Christian school K-12th and then attended a Christian College. Bible classes were mandatory throughout my 16 years of education and combine that with church every Sunday, I was very confident in my knowledge of the Bible....Was I depressed after realizing that heaven was no longer in my future or that God was no longer going to be a part of my life?....I wouldn't say I now follow atheism, as that makes it sound like atheism is its own religion; I actually don't like the word atheism because it doesn't mean anything. I am atheist and now free from religion.....

Sorry, Fishy....sad news for you (and for many others too).

Born into a Christian family don't make you a Christian just like born in a car garage don't make you a motor car.

Attending church every Sunday (or even everyday) don't make you a Christian either, more so in today's context, many so-called 'churches' are more of entertainment complex.

Having great Bible knowlege and having confidence in the Bible knowledge don't make you a Christian too. The pharisees, the scribes in Jesus days were experts in religious knowledge. In the Book of Mathew we can read how they were depicted by Jesus....hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites.

To be Christian, you must be born-again in His spirit. Without the spirit of God in you, you cannot be a child of God.

And the tragic truth, people are depressed to the point of becoming suicidal if they don't know life-purpose or when God is not part of their lives. Can't be any truth to what you said!

Fishy....though we have exchange many messages, most if not all are quite 'confrontative' but I feel very, very sad because your last statement: "I wouldn't say I now follow atheism, as that makes it sound like atheism is its own religion; I actually don't like the word atheism because it doesn't mean anything. I am atheist and now free from religion" seems so confusing. Likewise, I too feel very sad for those who are still searching for God and still have not found Him. That's why I am here writing all these threads....hopefully and prayerfully to help people to stay with their faith in the God of the Bible. You have nothing to lose but everything to gain....even in this life. Bible is still being translated into other languages that are not yet translated and are being sold as the best seller year after year after year. Reason - Simple. The Author is still alive!

 

[fishbuff]

Sorry, Fishy....sad news for you (and for many others too).

Born into a Christian family don't make you a Christian just like born in a car garage don't make you a motor car.

Attending church every Sunday (or even everyday) don't make you a Christian either, more so in today's context, many so-called 'churches' are more of entertainment complex.

Having great Bible knowlege and having confidence in the Bible knowledge don't make you a Christian too. The pharisees, the scribes in Jesus days were experts in religious knowledge. In the Book of Mathew we can read how they were depicted by Jesus....hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites.

To be Christian, you must be born-again in His spirit. Without the spirit of God in you, you cannot be a child of God.

And the tragic truth, people are depressed to the point of becoming suicidal if they don't know life-purpose or when God is not part of their lives. Can't be any truth to what you said!

Fishy....though we have exchange many messages, most if not all are quite 'confrontative' but I feel very, very sad because your last statement: "I wouldn't say I now follow atheism, as that makes it sound like atheism is its own religion; I actually don't like the word atheism because it doesn't mean anything. I am atheist and now free from religion" seems so confusing. Likewise, I too feel very sad for those who are still searching for God and still have not found Him. That's why I am here writing all these threads....hopefully and prayerfully to help people to stay with their faith in the God of the Bible. You have nothing to lose but everything to gain....even in this life. Bible is still being translated into other languages that are not yet translated and are being sold as the best seller year after year after year. Reason - Simple. The Author is still alive!

for someone write as eloquent as you do, you are certainly quite oblivious to my postings. above there is an URL that point to the article at yahoo.com.

yea, i know you are shaking in your boots. your make believe world of supernaturals gods and devils are crumbling around you. so now you are changing your tactic; instead of reflecting why these ministers, preachers, pastors are abandoning their religions in drove, you try to fortify whatever remaining illogical fantasies to bolster your superstitions.

too late, psalm23, your next generation will be atheists. you can lock up your children, drill them like those in the jesus camp, feed them with fear, "oh, the invisible god in the sky will watch you and convict you of though crime." Guaranteed! there will be no room for supernatural belief in this modern society. Religions must be shafted into the cold room of mythology where in the future, the people of the future will gaze at religious books of the past and wonder how dumb the 21st century can be to be believe in superstitions despite access to modern scientific material.

yes, you can be a "guru" in an internet world posing as a champion for religion, but why are you still in a developed country enjoying the fruits of science that the society has provided for you.? why wont you take up the yoke that jesus has given to all believers to go to all "corners" of the world to witness? why stay in your comfort zone? it is easier to lead a camel thru' the eye of the needle than to let psalm23 to deliver the gospels to the 3rd world countries. correct?

come on, take up the challenge. put the money where your mouth is.

 

[fishbuff]

GOD ON TRIAL

when a group of jews were put in the concentration camp and were about to be exterminated by the nazis, they put their religions and their god on trial, diliberating on the past intention and actions of god in OT.

yeah, your pastors will NOT tell you about this. watch it through and think for yourself!

[video=youtube;f7XCnJBTfZM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7XCnJBTfZM[/video]