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Deflation and Inflation: Which is the lesser evil?

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Japan was mired in deflation in the last 2 decades, till abenomic took place and started easing. Read that inflation is rising, but disposable income is shrinking.

Which is the lesser evil between the two? Or have all been misled, that deflation is better after all as compared to inflation.

My understanding is that if inflation is at 2% per year, money will be smaller by 20% in ten years time or am I wrong with this assumption.
 

Runifyouhaveto

Alfrescian
Loyal
Japan was mired in deflation in the last 2 decades, till abenomic took place and started easing. Read that inflation is rising, but disposable income is shrinking.

ya, some citizens in developed country, eg. Japan/US/Europe prefer to rent instead of own properties because nett rental yield (based on current price) is less than 2% . hahahaa at this moment, singapura is like that:
- You buy a condo for 800K
- Rental $3500 per month
- Cost of financing, eg. LTV-80% 1.5%pa = appx $800 per month
- Property tax (non-owner occupied) $250
- Maint fees $250
- Property agent fees 1 month for 2 year contract, eg. appx $120 per month
- Provision of basic furnishing/utilities/aircon servicing = $350
- Depreciation = assume 99/100 years flat rate = $670 a month
Final income = $3500 - $800 - $250 - $250 - $120 - $350 - $670 = $1060, excluding income tax.
Rental Yield for 800K current price = 1.6% (might as well sell than rent)

This means asset deflation is coming, in the months ahead.
 
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Runifyouhaveto

Alfrescian
Loyal
Which is the lesser evil between the two? Or have all been misled, that deflation is better after all as compared to inflation.

good brother, mainstream economics teach us that a bit of inflation is healthy. Nothing wrong with that.

Actually lot of things are relative.
Inflation and deflation can be good or bad when you compare against the people's income growth and interest rate environment.
eg. if inflation is lower than income growth, that is the utopia situation.
 

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
ya, some citizens in developed country, eg. Japan/US/Europe prefer to rent instead of own properties because nett rental yield (based on current price) is less than 2% . hahahaa at this moment, singapura is like that:
- You buy a condo for 800K
- Rental $3500 per month
- Cost of financing, eg. LTV-80% 1.5%pa = appx $800 per month
- Property tax (non-owner occupied) $250
- Maint fees $250
- Property agent fees 1 month for 2 year contract = 2800/24 = appx $120 per month
- Provision of basic furnishing/utilities/aircon servicing = $350
- Depreciation = assume 99/100 years flat rate = $670 a month
Final income = $3500 - $800 - $250 - $250 - $120 - $350 - $670 = $1060, excluding income tax.
Rental Yield for 800K current price = 1.6% (might as well sell than rent)

This means asset deflation is coming, in the months ahead.

Hi run, thanks for the detailed breakdown. It might be better to just sell and realise the profit, if any, rather than holding on to the property.

Problem is cash rich, but low or negative yield now.
 

Runifyouhaveto

Alfrescian
Loyal
Hi run, thanks for the detailed breakdown. It might be better to just sell and realise the profit, if any, rather than holding on to the property.

Problem is cash rich, but low or negative yield now.

Yes, sell if rental yield cannot even cross 2%.
Never mind, let me know after u sell. Just for you bro.
 

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
good brother, mainstream economics teach us that a bit of inflation is healthy. Nothing wrong with that.

Actually lot of things are relative.
Inflation and deflation can be good or bad when you compare against the people's income growth and interest rate environment.
eg. if inflation is lower than income growth, that is the utopia situation.

Frankly, mainstream economics could be wrong or want you to believe, that a little inflation is good, when they are in fact, taking your money, a little bit every year. With or without you even knowing it.
 

Runifyouhaveto

Alfrescian
Loyal
lianbeng replies: inflation means balloon full of air but deflation means no more air lor! :biggrin:

Well said.
Balloon can deflate if too big, inflate if no gas.
Bubble will get burst when it getting bigger.
Good political leadership turn economy into balloon, not bubbles.
 

Dragonhead

Alfrescian
Loyal
lianbeng replies: inflation means balloon full of air but deflation means no more air lor! :biggrin:

Inflation or deflation does not really matter to the ordinary sinkie in the street. Tell him kopi oh now costs $1, mee pok dry is $4, he will curse the MIW. That's all he knows about inflation.
 

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Yes, sell if rental yield cannot even cross 2%.
Never mind, let me know after u sell. Just for you bro.

Bro run, don't see me so up.
I was talking to my friend just this morning when we spoke on inflation and deflation especially in japan as he will be returning to singapore after his posting there.

He is also quite worried as to whether there will be a position for him here he return year end.
More importantly as he is currently renting out his place he is thinking whether to sell and wait for opportunity.

What do you think?
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
$1060 sounds like a good deal considering u havent paid off the condo loan?why must include depreciation when most likely we will be selling the property in 10 or 20 years time at a profit?

ya, some citizens in developed country, eg. Japan/US/Europe prefer to rent instead of own properties because nett rental yield (based on current price) is less than 2% . hahahaa at this moment, singapura is like that:
- You buy a condo for 800K
- Rental $3500 per month
- Cost of financing, eg. LTV-80% 1.5%pa = appx $800 per month
- Property tax (non-owner occupied) $250
- Maint fees $250
- Property agent fees 1 month for 2 year contract = 2800/24 = appx $120 per month
- Provision of basic furnishing/utilities/aircon servicing = $350
- Depreciation = assume 99/100 years flat rate = $670 a month
Final income = $3500 - $800 - $250 - $250 - $120 - $350 - $670 = $1060, excluding income tax.
Rental Yield for 800K current price = 1.6% (might as well sell than rent)

This means asset deflation is coming, in the months ahead.
 

lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
good brother, mainstream economics teach us that a bit of inflation is healthy. Nothing wrong with that.

Actually lot of things are relative.
Inflation and deflation can be good or bad when you compare against the people's income growth and interest rate environment.
eg. if inflation is lower than income growth, that is the utopia situation.

Just saw this,


The Fed wants investors to be as unconcerned as the central bank is about inflation. Even though year-over-year consumer price inflation is above its target, the Fed chose in its latest press conference to claim that the 2.1 percent increase in prices paid represented merely “noisy” readings in the inflation gauge. However, the truth is that rising prices are a direct result of years’ worth of zero percent interest rates and $3.5 trillion in money printing provided courtesy of Banana Ben Bernanke and the Counterfeiting Queen, Janet Yellen....

It makes no difference to Ms. Yellen that price increases in the major inflation categories are rising above the Fed’s target. For example: food at home is up 2.5 percent; energy went up 3.3 percent; shelter rising at 2.9 percent; medical care services up 3.0 percent, and transportation services 3.1 percent. But somehow the widely dispersed increases in year-over-year inflation, which are already far above the Fed’s target, are being summarily dismissed as “noise” by our central bank. In the spirit of today’s central bankers, inflation is seen as a dear friend, but one they never seem able to recognize face to face.

The Queen Counterfeiter also stated in her press conference that equity prices seem to be fairly valued from the Fed’s viewpoint. Perhaps she is also unaware that the ratio of total market capitalization to GDP is currently 122 percent. That figure is the second highest in history -- 1999 being the only exception -- and is 70 percentage points higher than the average from the time President Nixon broke the gold window in 1971, all the way through 1990! In fact, this key ratio is a full 10 percentage points higher than it was at the previous peak before the Great Recession in 2007. As a reminder; stock prices proceeded to lose more than half their value from the summer of 2007 through March 2009.

The bottom line here is that central banks have fallen into a passionate love affair with inflation and asset bubbles. These fiat-currency apologists believe that inflation is commensurate with economic growth; and that the solvency of sovereign debt can be achieved only through massive money printing and negative real interest rates from here to eternity.

But the joke will be on these legalized counterfeiters in just a very short time. Doubling down on the failed strategies of debt, inflation, currency destruction, regulations, taxes, and artificially low interest rates will soon explode in their faces.

The most humorous part of all this is that Wall Street and Washington have duped most investors into believing the fairy tale that our central bank can end a multi-trillion-dollar bond buying program and six years of ZIRP without experiencing any ill effects. And at the same time they are telling us that economic growth will be accelerating while the cost of money and the rate of inflation do not increase. There is no chance of that happening. So I'm convinced that our government's fantasy will end in a catastrophe for markets and the economy.
 

krafty

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
great calculation, i always think that it pays to be a landlord. after seeing your meticulous calculation, i understand now that rental market is also down to the doldrums.

in between deflation and inflation, in the middle is the best... seemingly, gahment need to practice the art of balancing. however, i see that inflation is still going up.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/singapore/inflation-cpi



ya, some citizens in developed country, eg. Japan/US/Europe prefer to rent instead of own properties because nett rental yield (based on current price) is less than 2% . hahahaa at this moment, singapura is like that:
- You buy a condo for 800K
- Rental $3500 per month
- Cost of financing, eg. LTV-80% 1.5%pa = appx $800 per month
- Property tax (non-owner occupied) $250
- Maint fees $250
- Property agent fees 1 month for 2 year contract = 2800/24 = appx $120 per month
- Provision of basic furnishing/utilities/aircon servicing = $350
- Depreciation = assume 99/100 years flat rate = $670 a month
Final income = $3500 - $800 - $250 - $250 - $120 - $350 - $670 = $1060, excluding income tax.
Rental Yield for 800K current price = 1.6% (might as well sell than rent)

This means asset deflation is coming, in the months ahead.
 

krafty

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
abe have 3 arrows in his economic reform, one is the monetary easing by lowering the interest rates, i see that why yen is going down...please excuse my ittle knowledge...:o

Japan was mired in deflation in the last 2 decades, till abenomic took place and started easing. Read that inflation is rising, but disposable income is shrinking.

Which is the lesser evil between the two? Or have all been misled, that deflation is better after all as compared to inflation.

My understanding is that if inflation is at 2% per year, money will be smaller by 20% in ten years time or am I wrong with this assumption.
 

bic_cherry

Alfrescian
Loyal
Japan was mired in deflation in the last 2 decades, till abenomic took place and started easing. Read that inflation is rising, but disposable income is shrinking.

Which is the lesser evil between the two? Or have all been misled, that deflation is better after all as compared to inflation.

My understanding is that if inflation is at 2% per year, money will be smaller by 20% in ten years time or am I wrong with this assumption.
Your comment about money being smaller by 20% in 10yrs time is near accurate because U used a relatively lower inflation rate. The price of say a typical loaf of bread, ceteris paribus 10 yrs later will be 1.02^10=1.21899442x the current price,
I.e it's price is 21.899442% more expensive after 10yrs PURELY due to inflation.

The figure of 21.899442% is higher than 20% due to the compounding nature of inflation year after year.

In terms of value lost, your $1 would now only be able to buy 0.8203483 of a loaf of bread after 10yrs of 1.02% p.a. inflation: an approx 18% decrease in value of your $$$.
 
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lifeafter41

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
abe have 3 arrows in his economic reform, one is the monetary easing by lowering the interest rates, i see that why yen is going down...please excuse my ittle knowledge...:o

Yes, recall coming across the 3 arrows.
Raising the consumption tax from 5% to 8% was the other and later to 10% in April 2015.
This friend of mine posted to Japan was saying that locals see little benefit to themselves on the 3 arrows.

But one thing for sure, things are more expensive now with the increase in vat and it's going to get worse next year when it goes to 10%.

However he will be back to Singapore by year's end and does he has a job waiting for him remains to be seen and that's another thread/topic altogether.
 

Runifyouhaveto

Alfrescian
Loyal
Bro run, don't see me so up.
I was talking to my friend just this morning when we spoke on inflation and deflation especially in japan as he will be returning to singapore after his posting there.

He is also quite worried as to whether there will be a position for him here he return year end.
More importantly as he is currently renting out his place he is thinking whether to sell and wait for opportunity.

What do you think?

brother, don't worry i wun con your money.

Just because you said ,"Problem is cash rich, but low or negative yield now."
That is a rich man's headache - easier to resolve.
I seldom kaypoh such things because mi not guru.
Just let me know when the day comes, that u really offload your property, i tell you where to get the panadol for such headaches.

Good night
 

bic_cherry

Alfrescian
Loyal
'Inflation' vs 'deflation' according to investment bankers(/economist in their ivory

'Inflation' vs 'deflation' according to investment bankers(/economist in their ivory towers).
re thread (SBY): Deflation and Inflation: Which is the lesser evil?
Japan was mired in deflation in the last 2 decades, till abenomic took place and started easing. Read that inflation is rising, but disposable income is shrinking.
Which is the lesser evil between the two? Or have all been misled, that deflation is better after all as compared to inflation.
My understanding is that if inflation is at 2% per year, money will be smaller by 20% in ten years time or am I wrong with this assumption.
May I humbly suggest that for laymen with little policy experience, pls DO NOT START OFF THINKING LIKE published ECONOMIST in order to first build oneself a good, organic foundation in the study of economics/ politics etc.
I.e. DO NOT THINK ABOUT INFLATION/ DEFLATION as published economist think but in terms of how the poor man on the street thinks.
E.g.
- public school/ uni education is Singapore is heavily subsidised (price DEFLATED): this is akin to deflating the price of education so more children can have a good (INFLATED) shot at doing well in life.
- Cigarette prices are legislatively INFLATED as a means to preserve health and as a claw back mechanism since smokers are expected to contribute less income taxes (retire early(Ill health/ stroke)), stay in hospital more (heart attack, diabetes etc)/ DEFLATE the future burden of ill health through a DEFLATED % of active smokers.
- cost of owning a private car for in Singapore is legislatively INFLATED (COE, ERP, ARF, petrol tax, road tax, parking fees etc) to recognise the premium nature of private transport and to DEFLATE the number of road congestion causing cars around.
- Bus fare/ public transport prices are DEFLATED with the S$1.1 bus service enhancement programme (BSEP) to improve commuter experience so that fewer will depend on private car/ taxi transport and thus DEFLATE overall frequency of road congestion etc.
- Hospital medical care prices are DEFLATED with INFLATED subsidies for C class wards to help less educated/ poorer Singaporeans cope with increasing healthcare costs over the years etc.
- access to dangerous addictive/hullicinogenic drugs (LSD, heroin etc) is DEFLATED with legislatively INFLATED trafficking penalties such as the mandatory death penalty for drug trafficking etc.
-------------------------------

The reason for Japan's economic stagnation AFAIK is because of its growth bubble >20 yrs ago when greed drove its property prices shot through the roof resulting in widespread demoralisation of society if not an increased rich-poor divide (people who rent become demoralised and prefer to sleep on streets than work to pay escalating rentals).
General inflation favours those who are sly/smart enough to take advantage of it and disadvantages those who just sit on their pile of cash without being aware what inflation is doing to it.
Investment bankers LOVE INFLATION because it allows them MORE REASON to gamble with depositors $$$: these folks thrive on instability: e.g. merger/ acquisition jobs, selling unit trusts, trading I'm futures/ other derivatives etc etc. In the short term, there is increased economic activity since people hand their savings to bankers to invest out of fear of erosion due to inflation, however, in the long term, there might be severe repercussions if the investment is not in socially benificial growth but in unjustified asset price increase/ Potemkin investments like Japan had been in 1990s: only serving to frighten away investors due to stratospheric rental costs: a consequence of inflated (property) asset prices and even larger population of urban poor having squandered their savings on unwise/ reckless investment (as advised by greedy investment bankers that is).

It remains a pity that most Japanese do not have a good understanding of God that mainly comes from the study of Abrahamic religion/ similar and currently consider Shinzo Abe their god and leader (like their emperor in WW2): only time will tell when they will have to find a new god since Abe will surely fail given to the weakness of his structural reforms (if any is to be seen at all): again aggravating the wealth divide which adds to societal problems etc.

So it is better to first look at the items being considered and how the regulation of such prices improves or degrades society rather than using the terms "inflation/ deflation" closely (and recklessly) as economist ought to do because a majority of economists employed/ paid by political parties are there only to give support to a political agenda, paid to justify a private political interest with little concern for the small man in the street.

Only honestly thinking people can/ deserve to demand accountability from dishonest politicians. Thus the need to think of inflation/ deflation in simple, honest, itemised (organic) terms, based upon how it affects the poor man in the street.
Inflation in the access to good through subsidies to 'good' (legislative price deflation) and
Deflation in access to what is evil/ harmful (increases in tobacco tax etc) through inflated prices discouraging access to the tobacco drug.

This is how inflation / deflation should be seen. People on the ground should learn this to demand accountability from economist and politicians hiding in their ivory towers with the golden question: is the quality of life of poor individual IMPROVING OR DETERIORATING. That is much more important than pie in the sky definitions of 'inflation'/ 'deflation' when the basket of good in respect of such pronouncements is yet publicly defined let alone agreed upon.

Communism was one eminent economic theory/ system of thought, yet time revealed its ponzi elements: revolutionaries: mainly stressed-out trouble makers who stole power by promising the moon if not the sun, only to follow the tyrannical ways of whom they overthrew once themselves gained power. Abenomics will follow somewhat in this shadow, given the vagueness of 'structural reforms' that Mr Shinzo Abe promises, which untill now seems to only benefit the rich, making Mr Abe very likely to be voted out due to his neglect of the very poor he ought to uplift.
 
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frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Inflation vs deflation according to investment bankers(/economist in their ivory

bro if u can control deflation and inflation then it would be a economic comedy wouldnt it?inflation is not something u can control....like that why dont the fucking government just deflate all the price of wanton mee and gong bao chicken rice and prawn paste chicken in the hawker center to 10 cents?fuck education,if i can buy a plate of fu yong dan for 20 cents USD why the fuck do i still need to study?how the fuck can subsidies be deflation?u are just transferring the cost to another party.

Inflation vs deflation according to investment bankers('economist') in their ivory towers.

May I humbly suggest that for laymen with little policy experience, pls DO NOT PRETEND TO BE published ECONOMIST in order to first build oneself a good foundation in the study of economics/ politics etc.
I.e. DO NOT THINK ABOUT INFLATION/ DEFLATION as published economist think but in terms of how the poor man on the street thinks.
E.g.
- education is Singapore is heavily subsidised (price DEFLATED): this is akin to deflating the price of education so more children can have a good shot at doing well in life.
- Cigarette prices are legislatively INFLATED as a means to preserve health and as a claw back mechanism since smokers are expected to contribute less income taxes (retire early(Ill health/ stroke)), stay in hospital more (heart attack, diabetes etc).
- cost of driving a car for in Singapore is legislatively INFLATED (COE, ERP, ARF, petrol tax, road tax, parking fees etc) to recognise the premium nature of private transport and to keep roads uncongested.
- Bus fare prices are DEFLATED with the S$1.1 bus service enhancement programme (BSEP) to improve commuter experience so that fewer will depend on private car/ taxi transport and thus reduce overall road congestion etc.
- medical care prices are DEFLATED with subsidies for C class wards to help less educated/ poorer Singaporeans cope with increasing healthcare costs over the years etc.
- access to dangerous addictive drugs (LSD, heroin etc) is DEFLATED with legislatively INFLATED trafficking penalties such as the mandatory death penalty for drug trafficking etc.
-------------------------------

The reason for Japan's economic stagnation AFAIK is because of its growth bubble >20 yrs ago when greed drove its property prices shot through the roof resulting in widespread demoralisation of society if not an increased rich-poor divide (people who rent become demoralised and prefer to sleep on streets than work to pay escalating rentals).
General inflation favours those who are sly/smart enough to take advantage of it and disadvantages those who just sit on their pile of cash without being aware what inflation is doing to it.
Investment bankers LOVE INFLATION because it allows them MORE REASON to gamble with depositors $$$: these folks thrive on instability: e.g. merger/ acquisition jobs, selling unit trusts, trading I'm futures/ other derivatives etc etc. In the short term, there is increased economic activity since people hand their savings to bankers to invest out of fear of erosion due to inflation, however, in the long term, there might be severe repercussions if the investment is not in economic growth but in unjustified asset price increase/ Potemkin investments like Japan had been in 1990s: only serving to frighten away investors due to stratospheric rental costs: a consequence of inflated (property) asset prices.

It remains a pity that most Japanese do not have a good understanding of God that mainly comes from the study of Abrahamic religion/ similar and currently consider Shinzo Abe their god and leader (like their emperor in WW2): only time will tell when they will have to find a new god since Abe will surely fail given to the weakness of his structural reforms (if any is to be seen at all): again aggravating the wealth divide which adds to societal problems etc.

So it is better to first look at the items being considered and how the regulation of such prices improves or degrades society rather than using the terms "inflation/ deflation" closely (and recklessly) as economy!list ought to do because a majority of economists employed/ paid by political parties are there only to give support to a political agenda, justify a power grab with little concern for the small man in the street.

Only honest people can/ deserve to demand accountability from dishonest politicians. Thus the need to think of inflation/ deflation in organic terms, based upon how it affects the poor man in the street.
Inflation in the access to good through subsidies to 'good' (legislative price deflation) and
Deflation in access to what is evil/ harmful (increases in tobacco tax etc) through inflated prices discouraging access to the tobacco drug.

This is how inflation / deflation should be seen. People on the ground should learn this to demand accountability from economist and politicians hiding in their ivory towers with the golden question: is the quality of life of poor individual IMPROVING OR DECREASING. That is much more important than pie in the sky definitions of 'inflation'/ 'deflation' when the basket of good in respect of such pronouncements is yet publicly defined.

Communism was one eminent economic theory/ system of thought, yet time revealed its ponzi elements: revolutionaries: mainly corrupt trouble makers who stole power by promising the moon if not the sun. Abenomics will follow in its shadow, given the vagueness of 'structural reforms' that Mr Shinzo Abe promises, which untill now seems to only benefit the rich, making Mr Abe very likely to be voted out due to his neglect of the poor.
 

lianbeng

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Inflation or deflation does not really matter to the ordinary sinkie in the street. Tell him kopi oh now costs $1, mee pok dry is $4, he will curse the MIW. That's all he knows about inflation.

lianbeng still can lim kopi-O for 80¢ n jia mee pok tah for $2.50 lah! :biggrin:
 
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