• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Myths and Misinformation about the Presidency of Singapore

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
I find that the Presidency and its powers are shrouded in so much confusion and deliberate misinformation that many people do not have a clear understanding of the role. Even opposition party leaders have been confused by it. The reasons for this are many fold, but does not in any way absolve the average Singaporean from finding out the real powers about this post.

What are some of this myths and misinformation?

1) The President guards the national reserves and prevents any govt. from stealing it or misusing it. This is the most popular and common explanation of the president’s role. There are several problems with this so called power. Exactly how much money is the president supposed to be safeguarding? Does anyone have a number? If someone told you to guard and protect this bank vault , but does not tell you how much money is in the vault, nor do they know., than how do you know whether the money is safe or not? If someone opens the vault, and there is $20 million in there, how do you know it’s not supposed to be $30 million and than $10 million has gone missing? So, you can see how ridiculous this so called power is.

The great irony is that the $billions are lost through Temasek and GIC and these monies are actually part of the reserves, yet, the President has no power over these monies or the investigation of their loss.

The President also is authorized to release part of the national reserves. But this happens only if the govt. of the day goes to him to ask for permission. Since the President is a long time friend and former party member of the PAP, any request from a PAP govt. to take money out will be automatically approved by the President. So, where is the safeguard here? The President is beholden to the PAP, because his approval and selection is done by the President Election Committee (PEC), and the PEC is entirely made up of PAP associates. In any case, this has happened only once in the era of the EP, and that was in 2009, when President Nathan authorize the PAP to draw down $4.9 billion from the reserves to bribe us with our own money, disguised as the Government resilience Package. Everyone should ask themselves why did the PAP go to the President and ask for $4.9 billion? After all Temasek claims that they are averaging 17% annual return on the reserves invested with them. If the PAP really needed $4.9 billion, why not issue bonds that pay less than 4% instead of taking out money that could have been earning 17%? Does not make sense right? It only makes sense if this is a wayang power, and for show. The PAP uses this power for propaganda.

2) The President has no powers, and is a ceremonial role.
Unfortunately, this is not true. The President does have some real powers, and has other powers that can make life very hard for the govt. of the day. Some of these powers are :

a) The President signs bills passed by the Parliament into power of law. If the President were to withold his signature, and not sign the bills, it would cause many problems for the govt. of the day. Some bills are patently questionable, but are signed by the President because of his close ties to the PAP. I believe that a truly independent President would not have sign into law legislature that would pay Ministers such high salaries. Imagine the inconvenience and the embarrassment to the PAP if their attempt to make themselves instant millionaires was thwarted by a President with a conscience and a sense of ethics. No doubt, there would be other ways to get the bills passed, and into law, but it’s a more arduous parliamentary process.

b) The president has the power to ask the CPIB to investigate any politician or other officials for corruption and graft. Imagine if a truly independent president requested an investigation into why so many HDB contracts were automatically given to Lee and Lee for conveyancing. Not to mention many other cases of conflicts of interest and what not.

c) The President appoints the key positions in govt. civil service, including the Police commissioner, Chief of defence forces, the Prime Minister, etc. Now all these positions in the civil service are obviously given to PAP lackeys and supporters, and some like the PM position is given on recommendation of the govt. of the day. That is why there is no possibility that the PAP will ever let an independent or opposition party member become the President, as they have the power to really sabotage the PAP’s agenda when it comes to appointing their key people.

d) the President also approves the budgets of certain stat boards, and can withhold assent to the budgets if he thinks it will draw down the “reserves”. HDB is a prime candidate for this to happen as they run a multi hundred million $ deficit every year. The president is well with his power to question whether the reserves are indirectly being used to prop up the HDB. If he does not approve HDB’s budget, or the budget of other stat boards, many functions would ground to a halt. There will be public backlash not on the President but on the PAP for trying to fob off irrational budgets and obscene bills on the people.
One can see from the above examples, the President does have some real power other than over the reserves and has the ability to make life very difficult for the govt. of the day. Herein lies the real role of the Presidency from viewpoint of the PAP. It is this: In the event that the PAP does lose an election, the President still belongs to them and his new role will be to stymy and block any reforms the opposition new govt. wants to make and to make it as difficult as possible for them to function effectively. The sooner that Singaporeans understand this, the better it will be for everyone. This will allow everyone to see why the Tony Tans of the world are just another branch of the PAP installment in the Presidential post , and why any other potential opposition candidates will never see their application to run be approved by the PEC. There is just too much at stake for the PAP not to rig it the way they want to.
 
Last edited:

red amoeba

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
bro...another myth is regarding the presidential clemency...he don't have the power to decide...the cabinet decide for him whether to grant clemency or not.
 

GOD IS MY DOG

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
in other words , a president is a totally useless piece of fuck...................completely redundant....................


a 100% uselesstard..................
 

streetsmart73

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
in other words , a president is a totally useless piece of fuck...................completely redundant....................


a 100% uselesstard..................


hi there


1. bro, bottomline: useless and meaningless!
2. just scrap the damn expensive portfolio.
3. why spend 4 million per annum for something non-productive?
4. why pay 4 million to some clown in some wayang act?
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
bro...another myth is regarding the presidential clemency...he don't have the power to decide...the cabinet decide for him whether to grant clemency or not.
I don't think this is a myth. Everyone knows the President can commute death sentences if he wants to.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
in other words , a president is a totally useless piece of fuck...................completely redundant....................


a 100% uselesstard..................

I guess u did not read the post, the president does have real powers, but when he is in the pocket of the PAP, than these powers will never be used for the common good.
 

sense

Alfrescian
Loyal
Myths on top of myths.

People should really learn how to reference to support their claims.

referencing.jpg
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Myths on top of myths.

People should really learn how to reference to support their claims.

referencing.jpg

Reference what? Its all there in the Consitution. U mean u don't know how to access it? As usual, u are one of those that need to be spoonfed.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Obviously you have not interpreted correctly. You got read the whole bill as there are many work arounds and bypasses. Here are the main points

For instance, if the Presidents refuse to do the following
- withhold approval for key public and stat board appointment holders
- withhold assent to bills

They can go to Parliament and get 2/3rd of members to vote and get their way. If the President does not do anything after 30 days from delivery, it is considered as approved in some cases.

The clemency part is very clear. He has no discretionary power. Has to follow the advice of cabinet.

Where he can agree to with director CPIB to conduct an investigation, he cannot force the AG to prosecute. He has also no power to do the annual appraisal of Director CPIB and his career path. Such positions are filled with "carefully" selected individuals.
 

sense

Alfrescian
Loyal
Reference what? Its all there in the Consitution. U mean u don't know how to access it? As usual, u are one of those that need to be spoonfed.

There is a world of difference between direct quotation and interpretation/commentary of the constitution.

For the benefit of the community
CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SINGAPORE
http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_retrieve.pl?actno=REVED-const

It would help if people can reference the specific section that they are commenting on, if they want to be more credible.
 
Last edited:

sense

Alfrescian
Loyal
For those who prefer a single PDF document may download it from here: http://bit.Iy/rowbvs

CoverPage-Constitution-Of-The-Republic-Of-Singapore.jpg
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Obviously you have not interpreted correctly. You got read the whole bill as there are many work arounds and bypasses. Here are the main points

For instance, if the Presidents refuse to do the following
- withhold approval for key public and stat board appointment holders
- withhold assent to bills

They can go to Parliament and get 2/3rd of members to vote and get their way. If the President does not do anything after 30 days from delivery, it is considered as approved in some cases.

The clemency part is very clear. He has no discretionary power. Has to follow the advice of cabinet.

Where he can agree to with director CPIB to conduct an investigation, he cannot force the AG to prosecute. He has also no power to do the annual appraisal of Director CPIB and his career path. Such positions are filled with "carefully" selected individuals.

I don't think so, I think you are the one that has not intepreted correctly, nor have you studied the intent and tone of the presidential position in the Constitution. Firstly, your point on the clemency part. U said he has no discretion, according to who? That idiot Steven Chong? Since the time of independence, all petition for clemency has been send to the President. Now Steven Chong, a mere high court judge, rules that the president does not have the power, and only the cabinet has the power to grant clemencies, and that makes him right? SUch a ruling on constitutional matters like the granting of clemency is not within Chong's prerogative to make. The Chief Justice should be the one to give this ruling, or at the very least a panel of Supreme court judges. Because the president is not independent, he does not challenge this ruling. But there is nothing to prevent future presidents, if they are independent, to grant clemency disregarding the cabinet's advice. What steven Chong's ruling says that all this time, the petitions have been send to the wrong place. They should have been send to the cabinet instead of the president. The fact that no one disputes the right of the president to review the petition all these decades, other than steven chong indicates to me that either he is the one brilliant chap that found this out, or that thousands of judges, MPs, presidents, and DPs, etc. that went before him were right and he is wrong. Which is the likely case, you think?

2nd, As I mentioned in my thread, any bills refused by the President can still be passed after a more ardous process which you have pointed out. By declining the bill in the first place, the president would have brought media attention on the bills themselves, and thrown a spotlight on them, when the bills have to go back to parliament. Imagine if the President had refused to sign the bills granting the ministers million $ salaries, and it had gone back to the parliament for a 2/3 vote. No doubt it would have been passed, but the delay would have enabled the oppos and social media to zero in on this and cause considerable bad press to the PAP. The PAP would much rather not have to go thru this more public excercise to get their money, hence this is actually a power that the president has.
 
Last edited:

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
You are right and I was wrong. I showed your first post to an SC and he agrees with you. I was not aware that the Presidency was such a powerful office.


I don't think so, I think you are the one that has not intepreted correctly, nor have you studied the intent and tone of the presidential position in the Constitution.


 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
hi there


1. bro, bottomline: useless and meaningless!
2. just scrap the damn expensive portfolio.
3. why spend 4 million per annum for something non-productive?
4. why pay 4 million to some clown in some wayang act?

The President is paid $4 million and is beholden to the PAP. This is just the insurance premuim paid by the PAP using our tax money so that the president will not exercise his real constitutional right and tekan them.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
You are right and I was wrong. I showed your first post to an SC and he agrees with you. I was not aware that the Presidency was such a powerful office.

Scroobal, its not a question of whether you are right or if I am wrong, but thank you for saying that anyway. I just wanted to to try and educate some people who read this thread and if possible clarify some of the smoke covering the subject of the Presidency. If even one person who reads this thread is now more clear than before, than it has been worth it.

But as you know, there are so many crap floating around about who will throw their hat into the ring and run for President, names being bandied around like TKL, TKT, CCM, etc. Non of this matters, as they will never see their names being approved due to the reasons I have given in this thread. Only TT is the sanctioned one. The scary thing to me is that not even oppo leaders know the extent of the powers of the Presidency. And if someone like you with over 8000 posts, and a strong knowledge of local politics is not aware of real powers of the presidency, than how is the local regular Sinkie going to figure it out?

Everyone is complicit in this.
- MOE and the Schools - do not educate the students as to their rights under the constitution and as to the power and function of the various levels of govt.
- The Media/Shit Times group- that does not know how to report transgressions on the constitution, or were muzzled.
- The PAP for creating an aura of legality to the many constitutionally illegal acts they have carried out.
- The oppo members, including long timers like Chiam who have not educated themselves enough to identify constitutional infractions.
 

lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear PAP

Ask any lawyer even on fresh out of school apart from Ravi and you will find that they are all in agreement based on constitutional history and the royal perogative of mercy. The issue has gone all the way up to the Supreme Court and has been decided. The President in clemency has no discretion. Mercy has always been the power of the executive and rightly so.

The President is bound under the Constitution to follow the advise of the cabinet or any of his ministers under 22(1). His discretion involves a bill which may involve the spending of the reserves.

For me simply the President is meant to be head of state for all PAP, conservatives, liberals, he is not meant to challenge the PM or the cabinet in whom ultimate executive authority lies. A lawyer said that the President could comment against unpopular policies, as that was not in the constitution, whilst I agreed with him, politically I felt that was bad for Singapore for the President to be politically challenging the PM head on.

I do agree that there is room for moral assertion and shaming. i.e inviting Dr Chee for TEA, i.e donating 70% of salary to poor or charities. In essence the indirect versus the direct.



Locke
 

sense

Alfrescian
Loyal
On SG President "Grant of Pardon"

Part 1

What Steven Chong said:
85 … [T]he clemency process is not justiciable on the grounds pursued by [the Appellant], because:
(a)
the power to grant pardons under Article 22P is exercised by the Cabinet, and not the President, who has no discretion in the matter;
(b) apparent bias is not an available ground on which to review the clemency process;
(c) there is no evidence of a pre-determination of [the Appellant]’s imminent [clemency] petition; and
(d) there is no basis for a substantive right to the materials which will be before the Cabinet when it advises the President on the clemency petition.


Steven Chong's opinion is also agreeable by CJ Chan Sek Keong.

source: Civil Appeal No 144 of 2010 Yong Vui Kong v Attorney-General
http://www.mediafire.com/?5h06hh4o5xgm45l

Part 2


What's stated in the SG Constitution:

Grant of pardon, etc.
22P. —(1) The President, as occasion shall arise, may, on the advice of the Cabinet
(a) grant a pardon to any accomplice in any offence who gives information which leads to the conviction of the
principal offender or any one of the principal offenders, if more than one;
(b) grant to any offender convicted of any offence in any court in Singapore, a pardon, free or subject to lawful
conditions, or any reprieve or respite, either indefinite or for such period as the President may think fit, of the
execution of any sentence pronounced on such offender; or
(c) remit the whole or any part of such sentence or of any penalty or forfeiture imposed by law.
(2) Where any offender has been condemned to death by the sentence of any court and in the event of an appeal such sentence has been confirmed by the appellate court, the President shall cause the reports which are made to him by the Judge who tried the case and the Chief Justice or other presiding Judge of the appellate court to be forwarded to the Attorney-General with instructions that, after the Attorney-General has given his opinion thereon, the reports shall be sent, together with the Attorney-General’s opinion, to the Cabinet so that the Cabinet may advise the President on the exercise of the power conferred on him by clause (1).

source: Constitution Of The Republic Of Singapore
http://www.mediafire.com/?cjl6b2vme526z6e

Case Scenarios

Case 1: Steven Chong and CJ Chan are both wrong and/or the President was sleeping.

Case 2: Steven Chong and CJ Chan are both right & the so call 'power conferred on' the President in 22P is an illusion and/or there are typo errors in 22P.

Moment-of-Truth.gif
 
Last edited:

sense

Alfrescian
Loyal
Imagine if the President had refused to sign the bills granting the ministers million $ salaries, and it had gone back to the parliament for a 2/3 vote. No doubt it would have been passed, but the delay would have enabled the oppos and social media to zero in on this and cause considerable bad press to the PAP. The PAP would much rather not have to go thru this more public excercise to get their money, hence this is actually a power that the president has.

Great point there. We need a President who has the courage to say No.

We already know that Nathan do not have the courage to say No. And that we have a review on these million $ salaries by Gerald Ee at this moment!

How about these 3 EP candidates:
Case 1: Do you think TT will say No to the million $ salaries bill?
Case 2: Do you think TKL will say No to the million $ salaries bill?
Case 3: Do you think TCB will say No to the million $ salaries bill?

Their past performance (of how many YESes and NOs) during their work with the PAP would be a good reflection of the future.
 
Last edited:

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Great point there. We need a President who has the courage to say No.

We already know that Nathan do not have the courage to say No. And that we have a review on these million $ salaries by Gerald Ee at this moment!

How about these 3 EP candidates:
Case 1: Do you think TT will say No to the million $ salaries bill?
Case 2: Do you think TKL will say No to the million $ salaries bill?
Case 3: Do you think TCB will say No to the million $ salaries bill?

Their past performance (of how many YESes and NOs) during their work with the PAP would be a good reflection of the future.

As per my thread, the PAP has to go with the man that will say YES all the time to them. Not some of the time, not anyone with courage, someone who is compliant and obedient. TKL and TCB might satisfy these PAP requirements, but the PAP will not take the chance. They will go with the proven guy, the guy who is up to his neck in skeletons in the closet like they are, the guy who has the most to lose if the PAP is kicked out, and that guy is Tony. That is why I keep telling everyone, I don't care if Warren Buffet becomes a SIngapore citizen tomorrow and wants to run for President. He will not get it. Only Tony will get it. The sooner the oppos and the people realise this, the sooner they can plan against him. Everyone else is smoke screen. By the way why u say TKL and TCB are EP candidates? Did the PEC already rule on their eligibility? I am not aware if they did.
 
Top