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Thread: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

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    Default USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    8 Oct, 2010, 04.13PM,AGENCIES

    India to hand out giant war jet deal to USA.

    126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

    US-based Lockheed Martin, offering latest upgraded F-16, and Boeing's F-18 "Superhornet" emerge as the front-runners. Announcement came a day after Moscow and New Delhi unveiled plans to co-develop 300 advanced stealth fighter jets


    NEW DELHI: India, which is racing to upgrade its military, is likely to hand out a 12-billion-dollar contract for 126 fighter jets by July 2011, the country's air force chief said on Friday.

    Six global aeronautical companies are in a dogfight to grab the deal to sell 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force.

    "We had submitted the MMRCA report with the defence ministry on July 30 and if everything goes of well, then the contract should be signed by July 30 next year," air chief marshall P.V. Naik said, the Press Trust of India reported.

    India issued the request for proposals to the six short-listed firms in August 2007 and the long-awaited trials of the aircraft competing for the world's most lucrative fighter jet contract began last year.

    US-based Lockheed Martin, offering its latest upgraded F-16, and Boeing's F-18 "Superhornet" emerged as the front-runners.

    The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company has offered its Typhoon Eurofighter and French Dassault, which constructs the Mirage, has put forward its Rafale.

    Russian manufacturers of the MiG-35 and MiG-29, as well as Sweden's Saab, which is hawking its Gripen fighter, are also in the running for the biggest fighter jet contract in 16 years.

    The contract includes the outright purchase of 18 fighter jets by 2012 with another 108 to be built in India.

    India would also have an option to buy 64 more such jets.

    Air chief marshall Naik's announcement came a day after Moscow and New Delhi unveiled plans to co-develop 300 advanced stealth fighter jets for military technology-hungry India. Aviation experts say the 30-ton Russian-designed planes could cost up to 100 million dollars each.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Fucking India buy so many jets for what? Going to war soon?

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    This is a better buy than the Russian jets. At least they have proven technology. While it may appear like a lot of jets, India has to contend with Pakistan and China.

    Given the common borders and the size of the countries even 2000 fighters are not enough.

    Whatever happened to the India develop jet?

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    This is a better buy than the Russian jets. At least they have proven technology. While it may appear like a lot of jets, India has to contend with Pakistan and China.

    Given the common borders and the size of the countries even 2000 fighters are not enough.

    Whatever happened to the India develop jet?
    The LCA and these Sukhois are 2 different airplanes. With the LCA, the Indians are trying to produce a modern Ajeet, i.e. a small jet with limited capabilities, but cheap to build and operate. These Sukhoi Pak 50s are much more advanced and a more offensive weapon. Current Indian equipment is way behind China and even Pakistan. They need to do something about it. The LCA is probably 15 years behind schedule, it was meant to have replaced their Mig-21s long ago. But they are definitely going ahead with it. They want a hi-lo mix of aircraft in their inventory, like we have in the RSAF.

    The maintenance issue is a different matter. I guess it depends on the age of the aircraft, and the type of aircraft. The indians per se don't have bad maintenance, and if they are building the plane in India at HAL with Russian help, they should not have any problems with spare parts either. You never hear of accidents from the Indian Fleet of Mirage 2000, but than you hear of Mig-21s dropping like flies. But the Migs are much older than the Mirage, and depending on the quality of the flight crew and the maintenance crew, its possible that the more expensive planes get the better pilot and ground crews, and the Mig squadrons are manned by lesser ability personnel. The combination of less qualified personnel and older planes is a recipe for accidents.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    This is a better buy than the Russian jets. At least they have proven technology. While it may appear like a lot of jets, India has to contend with Pakistan and China.

    Given the common borders and the size of the countries even 2000 fighters are not enough.

    Whatever happened to the India develop jet?
    I see a lot of problems with the Lockheed and Boeing offers. The US will have a problem with technology transfer to India, and aircraft like the F-18have never been manaufactured outside the US, which is what the Indians will want to do. The pakis and the Chinese will place tremendous pressure on the US not to sell these planes to India. The US right now still needs Pakistan to funnel their military to Afghanistan and to help combat he Taleban.

    I also doubt that the Indians will givethe Russians such a big deal on the heels of the 300 plane announced Sukhoi Pak 50 deal. They will really be stuck with them and at their mercy. Russian weaponry has not done well against western ones recently, and the russians have been screwing the Indians around on the aircraft carrier deal. I can't believe there is no hard feelings over that.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the French win, they will sell their grandmothers for a profit. The Indians have a positive experience with their French planes like their Mirage 2000s and Sepecat Jaguars. The French will take offsets to make it happen. I think Typhoon is out for the same reason the RSAF did not buy it. Too expensive, and the delivery schedule is too long. Grippen is a long shot at best. I think its probably the best plane for the Indans, but I am not sure if the Swedes will allow co-production outside their country.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Papsmearer View Post

    I see a lot of problems with the Lockheed and Boeing offers. The US will have a problem with technology transfer to India, and aircraft like the F-18have never been manaufactured outside the US, which is what the Indians will want to do.

    Its the Americans who are pushing for the deal. They are overly keen to sell these air-crafts with 100% technology transfer and joint production. The objections or approvals of the Chinese and Pakistanis have absolutely no weight in all these military sale equations between USA, Russia and India.

    Btw: The Pentagon even sold missiles and jets to Taiwan regardless of what the Chinese had to object to.


    The pakis and the Chinese will place tremendous pressure on the US not to sell these planes to India. The US right now still needs Pakistan to funnel their military to Afghanistan and to help combat he Taleban.

    This is a simplistic reasoning of geo-political dynamics.

    I also doubt that the Indians will givethe Russians such a big deal on the heels of the 300 plane announced Sukhoi Pak 50 deal. They will really be stuck with them and at their mercy. Russian weaponry has not done well against western ones recently, and the russians have been screwing the Indians around on the aircraft carrier deal. I can't believe there is no hard feelings over that.

    The air exercise held last year between US and the Indians, the results surprised and shocked the Americans. It was F-15, F-18 versus Mig 29 and SU-27s.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the French win, they will sell their grandmothers for a profit. The Indians have a positive experience with their French planes like their Mirage 2000s and Sepecat Jaguars. The French will take offsets to make it happen.

    Offsets are offered by all parties at 30 %. Not just the French.
    BTW: The MIg 21-s are now upgraded with US Avionics and Israeli retrofits.


    I think Typhoon is out for the same reason the RSAF did not buy it. Too expensive, and the delivery schedule is too long. Grippen is a long shot at best. I think its probably the best plane for the Indans, but I am not sure if the Swedes will allow co-production outside their country.
    The Swedes are not at all in the short list even. Their aircrafts are unwanted and have been ignored from the start.

    The deals are being split between USA and Russia and both parties are overly keen to accommodate the full demands made by the Indians.

    It is true the old Mig 21s before retrofit had a high accident rate, akin to those from other operator countries like Poland and eastern block nation air forces. But not after the avionics system upgrades. The aircraft itself is very old workhorse and it has passed its prime and are being scrapped out now.

    On the other hand the accident rate of the Indian MIG 29s and SU-27s have been almost nil, even though the Indians operate over 180 of these high performance Mig 29s and 60 SU-27s at the moment.

    Regarding the LCA, the delay was due to securing the augmented GE 404 engines, which was supposed to be the power plant for the LCA. Now that the US has given export clearance, the LCAs are now in serial production in India, until 2014 when the local made engine K-35 will be incorporated into the LCA in lieu of the Ge 404 A.

    Just setting the record straight here.


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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Talk cock here . Wait and see. Production plant when going to built, start production and test prototype and finally roll out. It will take 10 year.
    Save the Earth

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    I think it will take a longer time for India to put together all the mfg pieces needed to make their own warplane. At the moment, their mfg infra is just not there. Just looking at their execution of the Commonwealth Games give one doubts. They can assemble all the parts from overseas but to make 90% of the jet with Indian sourced parts is going to take a while.

    Buying warplanes is just a small solution - you are at the whims of the politics at the time. Look at iran - they had most modern airforce under the shah but after the hostage situation US embargoed parts and iran got screwed

    Therefore to be a major player - the Chinese have gone the route of making their own warplane. It is not easy as very few nations can build their own engines. But that is the way to go. of course with each version, they learn from mistakes and improve. in the end they will end up with the knowledge to make a pretty good warplane. The more you "play around" with the technology the better you become at it. They have the huge economy behind them to fund their military.

    They have the mfg infrastructure, the $ and the know how can be learnt or hired. So once they get the technology watch out. If Beijing can loan, on easy terms tens of billions to africa, brazil, etc then it is nothing for them to fund their aerospace program to the tune of a couple of hundreds of billions.

    But long term solution is to have your own technology. That way you can exceed the available technology of the day. By buying, you will always get 1 gen behind. Dr. M was saying that the US could at anytime "switch off" the capabilities of the F16 aircraft sold to malaysia and that is why they went for the sukhoi.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Wow the LCA cost overrun reminds one of the Commonwealth games. Lots and lots of corruption going on as usual.

    article from times of india


    Tejas LCA project to cost more than Rs 13,000 crore over 35 years
    TNN, Apr 16, 2010, 01.49am IST
    Article
    Comments (84)

    NEW DELHI: The overall developmental cost of Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has quietly zoomed past the Rs 13,000-crore mark, with the government sanctioning the extension of the fighter's "full-scale engineering development'' (FSED) till December 31, 2018.

    This, in effect, means the Tejas developmental saga will now stretch across 35 years, sanctioned as the project was way back in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore to replace the ageing MiG-21s.

    Tejas, in fact, can now give the Arjun main-battle tank a run for its money in terms of years taken for full development. The tank project, after all, was first approved 36 years ago.

    It is, of course, critical for India to boost indigenous defence production, importing as it still does 70% of its military hardware and software, but this probably is not the way.

    "This is a very sorry state of affairs. Even after 27 years since LCA was sanctioned, it is yet to see light of the day,'' says the latest report of the parliamentary standing committee on defence, tabled in Parliament on Thursday.

    Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Aeronautical Development Agency and DRDO argue developing a supersonic fly-by-wire fourth-generation fighter from scratch, with international sanctions in place for several years, is an incredibly complex and tough task.

    The project, after all, includes single-seater IAF, twin-seater trainer and naval LCA variants. With Tejas prototypes clocking 1,350 flights till now, the "final operational clearance'' for the IAF variant is now slated for December 2012.

    "So, IAF should have its first Tejas squadron of 20 fighters by 2014-15. Even Swedish Gripen fighter's developmental cost was around Rs 12,640 crore,'' said an official.

    India, however, is now going in for foreign engines to power even the Tejas Mark-II version after the indigenous Kaveri engine failed to pass muster after 20 years of development at a cost of Rs 2,839 crore.

    Consequently, while the first 20 Tejas will be powered by the American GE-404 engines, the hunt is on for new more powerful engines for the next six Tejas Mark-II squadrons (16-18 jets in each).

    The Rs 13,000-crore mark for the LCA project is breached even if the Kaveri fiasco is kept aside. For one, the FSED Phase-I, which finished in March 2004, cost Rs 2,188 crore.

    The Phase-II, which was to be completed by December 2008 at a cost of Rs 3,301 crore, will now get over in December 2012, with additional funds of Rs 2,475 crore.

    Moreover, in November last year, the government "accorded'' sanction for "continuing FSED of LCA till December 2018, with an estimated additional cost of Rs 5,302 crore''.

    Amid all this, IAF is keeping its fingers crossed, grappling as it is with a free-fall in the number of its fighter squadrons, down to just 32 from a sanctioned strength of 39.5.


    Read more: Tejas LCA project to cost more than Rs 13,000 crore over 35 years - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...#ixzz11trPW8De

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by GoFlyKiteNow View Post
    The Swedes are not at all in the short list even. Their aircrafts are unwanted and have been ignored from the start.


    It is true the old Mig 21s before retrofit had a high accident rate, akin to those from other operator countries like Poland and eastern block nation air forces. But not after the avionics system upgrades. The aircraft itself is very old workhorse and it has passed its prime and are being scrapped out now.


    Just setting the record straight here.

    Want to set the record straight? LOL. Don't bs here, get your facts straight first, dun come here and smoke people. While u are correct in saying the Indians retrofitted their Mig-21s, quite extensively to the degree they call them Mig-21 Bisons now, the accident rate is still.....how do you say it?.........FUCKING HIGH? Since the retrofit in around 2002, there has been 19 Mig-21 crashes between 2005 and 2010 killing 7 pilots, including 2 this year. Not to mention even the first crash of an upgraded Mig-21 which took place in 2002. And that does not include the other crashes between 2002 and 2005. Considering that only a limited number of Mig-21s were retrofitted and remaining inservice, this % wise is a high loss rate.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Know why India keeps ordering new fighter jets...

    140 killed in 265 MiG fighter jet crashes

    December 12, 2009

    New Delhi, Dec 2 (IANS) The Indian Air Force (IAF) has lost 265 MiG fighter jets in crashes during the last two decades leaving 140 people dead, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said Wednesday.

    “In the last two decades (since April 1989 and up to Nov 26, 2009), 265 MiG fighter aircraft of the IAF have crashed. A total of 96 service personnel and 44 civilians were killed in these cases,” Antony told the parliament in a written reply.

    Dubbed “flying coffins” for their frequent crashes, only 150-160 of the over 450 single-engine MiG-21s with the IAF are still in service. A large number have been lost in accidents during peace time.

    Antony said that all precautions are being taken before flying the aircrafts.

    “Each aircraft accident in the IAF is investigated through a court of inquiry and remedial measures are undertaken accordingly to check their recurrence in future.

    “Besides continuous and multi-faceted efforts are always underway in the IAF to enhance and upgrade flight safety,” Antony added.

    However, a senior IAF official said that because it faces a shortage of fighter squadrons, the IAF cannot afford to phase out the ageing MiG-21s. If it does that, it would diminish its force level drastically.

    “The main problem with MiG-21s is that they are very old and the on-board systems have become obsolete,” a highly-placed IAF official, who has flown the combat aircraft, told IANS.

    The IAF, the world’s fourth largest air force, currently has a fighter squadron strength of 33.5 against the sanctioned 39.

    The Indian government has issued tenders for acquisition of 126 medium multi-role combat aircrafts but the acquisition has been delayed due to time consuming procedures, which include submitting of bids, technical evaluation of proposals from global military suppliers and field trials.

    The first aircraft would conservatively be inducted only by 2020, according to defence ministry sources. The assessment is that the retirement of the five squadrons of MiG-21s will diminish the IAF’s conventional edge over its adversaries.

    The current deadline for the retirement of MiG-21s is 2011. But this is likely to be pushed back further due to the slow pace of procurement and indigenisation process.
    The latest crash took place Sep 11 when a MiG-21 went down in Bathinda in Punjab, killing the pilot.

    The MiG-21s, inducted in 1964, proved their worth in the 1971 war with Pakistan and again in 1999 during the Kargil conflict, also with Pakistan. The IAF inducted its first MiG-21 from the erstwhile Soviet Union five years after their induction into the Soviet Air Force. Thereafter some 450 MiG-21 jets were inducted in the IAF to bolster its strength.

    The indigenous LCA (light combat aircraft) project has been marred with delays because of the inability of military research bodies to provide engines with right configuration for the aircrafts.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    7 pilots killed in 19 MiG-21 crashes since 2005
    Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:37:25 AM by IANS ( Leave a comment )
    New Delhi, Aug 11 (IANS) Seven pilots were killed in 19 crashes involving MiG-21 planes of the Indian Air Force (IAF) since 2005, parliament was informed Wednesday.
    “Since April 2005, a total of 19 MiG-21 aircraft of the IAF have crashed. Seven pilots were killed in the crashes,” Defence Minister A.K. Antony said in a written reply in the Rajya Sabha.

    In reply to another question in the upper house, Antony said the number of accidents involving IAF aircraft “has not gone up”

    “Thirteen accidents occurred during 2008-09, 14 accidents during 2009-10 and two accidents have taken place during the current year up to Aug 5,” he said.

    The minister said that every IAF air crash was investigated by a court of inquiry. “Accidents are due to reasons like technical defects and human error.”

    He said phasing out of planes was “contingent upon various factors like technical life of the aircraft and operational requirements of the IAF” and that it was reviewed from “time to time”.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by GoFlyKiteNow View Post
    .

    On the other hand the accident rate of the Indian MIG 29s and SU-27s have been almost nil, even though the Indians operate over 180 of these high performance Mig 29s and 60 SU-27s at the moment.

    local made engine K-35 will be incorporated into the LCA in lieu of the Ge 404 A.

    Just setting the record straight here.

    To my knowledge, the Indian Air Force has never operated SU-27s. They operate the SU-30MKI, and there are 122 of them as of July 2010. An if that is any comfort to you, the accident rate is going to skyrocket on them, having lost 2 SU-30MKIs in the last year.

    Just setting your record of my record straight

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    With safety records like that, who needs enemies?

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Papsmearer View Post
    To my knowledge, the Indian Air Force has never operated SU-27s. They operate the SU-30MKI, and there are 122 of them as of July 2010. An if that is any comfort to you, the accident rate is going to skyrocket on them, having lost 2 SU-30MKIs in the last year.

    Just setting your record of my record straight
    Yes, it is SU 30 Mk1.

    But the material point made is regarding the 'accident rate ' of these newer planes - regardless of their model / type.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Papsmearer View Post
    Want to set the record straight? LOL. Don't bs here, get your facts straight first, dun come here and smoke people. While u are correct in saying the Indians retrofitted their Mig-21s, quite extensively to the degree they call them Mig-21 Bisons now, the accident rate is still.....how do you say it?.........FUCKING HIGH? Since the retrofit in around 2002, there has been 19 Mig-21 crashes between 2005 and 2010 killing 7 pilots, including 2 this year. Not to mention even the first crash of an upgraded Mig-21 which took place in 2002. And that does not include the other crashes between 2002 and 2005. Considering that only a limited number of Mig-21s were retrofitted and remaining inservice, this % wise is a high loss rate.
    19 crashes in 5 years. works out to 4 a year for a old military workhorse.
    How would you term it as "very high loss rate" - in comparison to other air forces operating the same type of aircraft and in that percentage ?
    Do you have any comparative figures ?

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Papsmearer View Post

    I see a lot of problems with the Lockheed and Boeing offers. The US will have a problem with technology transfer to India, and aircraft like the F-18have never been manaufactured outside the US, which is what the Indians will want to do. The pakis and the Chinese will place tremendous pressure on the US not to sell these planes to India. The US right now still needs Pakistan to funnel their military to Afghanistan and to help combat he Taleban.
    --------
    Setting the record straight..

    US Pressing India To Buy Military Hardware

    NEW DELHI, Oct 1, 2010 (AFP) - The United States has stepped up pressure on India to buy US military hardware worth up to 11 billion dollars, ahead of President Barack Obama's first state visit to the country, a report said Friday.

    Washington's hopes of achieving a big commercial "deliverable" from Obama's visit next month are now pinned on a fighter jet deal, the Financial Times said, basing its report on unnamed sources.

    US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Defence Secretary Robert Gates have pressed Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony to opt for US bids to supply over 100 multi-combat fighter aircraft to India, the paper said.

    Antony is on a two-day visit to Washington.

    The project, worth up to 11 billion dollars, is the world's largest pending military hardware deal.

    US-based Lockheed Martin and Boeing are among six foreign companies that India is evaluating, and winning the work would create or save thousands of US jobs, the FT said.

    "We think we have the finest military hardware in the world, and if India is upgrading its defence capabilities, they should buy American," State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said following Antony's meeting with Clinton.

    The United States also hopes India might conclude a deal to buy 10 C-17 transport aircraft from Boeing in time for Obama's visit as part of a package worth as much as 3.5 billion dollars, the newspaper said.

    Indian defence analysts say New Delhi faces a choice of turning to the US for sophisticated military equipment or maintaining supplies from Russia, its traditional defence partner.

    New C-17s would replace India's ageing fleet of Russian Ilyushins while any new fighters would replace Sukhoi and MiG jets.

    The selection of one of the US fighter jet bids would help cement a growing alignment of two of the world's largest democracies -- a political bond Obama will stress heavily on his visit, the newspaper said.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by GoFlyKiteNow View Post
    19 crashes in 5 years. works out to 4 a year for a old military workhorse.
    How would you term it as "very high loss rate" - in comparison to other air forces operating the same type of aircraft and in that percentage ?
    Do you have any comparative figures ?
    Dubbed “flying coffins” for their frequent crashes, only 150-160 of the over 450 single-engine MiG-21s with the IAF are still in service. A large number have been lost in accidents during peace time.
    They managed to lose two thirds of their fleet in peace time crashes. Incomparable. USAF, RAF and Israeli AF didn't lose so much even when in all-out wars against powers like Japan, Germany and the entire Arab alliance. Hell, even Japan and Germany didn't lose so much even when they actually lost the war.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Papsmearer View Post



    Russian weaponry has not done well against western ones recently,...
    ????
    Recently ?...How far is "recently" ?

    In which theater of operations did they not perform well (recently) ?

    Did they perform better , earlier to these recent times ?

    Saddam used them..but he also used French, Chinese, N Korean, Swedish weaponry too in the last war..( or shall we way he could hardly use them against the Americans ).

    The Serbs used Russians missiles effectively against Nato aircraft..that was nearly 15 years ago.

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    Default Re: USA India deal for 126 fighter aircraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramseth View Post
    They managed to lose two thirds of their fleet in peace time crashes. Incomparable. USAF, RAF and Israeli AF didn't lose so much even when in all-out wars against powers like Japan, Germany and the entire Arab alliance. Hell, even Japan and Germany didn't lose so much even when they actually lost the war.
    Really ?.
    LOL

    http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...earch_active=1

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