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Putin's tank designed to outclass West breaks down

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
yes this is true,im no expert but from what i have read about the lebanon war,the Merkava tank is even more heavily armoured than the US tanks.But the hezbollah insurgents were extremely well trained by russian and iran operatives and knew all the weaknesses about the merkava's armor.on top of that,the russian rpgs and kornet missiles were extremely effective with up to 1300mm penetration rate of reactive armour.there was a case where a single kornet missile penetrated the engine compartment of two merkava tanks lined up with each other that was towing another and the crew of the first tank died while the other had to bail.with a penetration rate of over 50%(full compromise of armor integrity) in the lebanon war of all missiles that hit the tanks and a high fatality rate,its no wonder the israelis pulled out of the war quickly.same scenario happened in the gaza massacre,their merkava assualt was quickly repelled by rpgs and the israeli cowards had to resort to aerial bombardment of innocent civilians.tanks are almost useless in urban combat with the advent rise of the modern russian made rpgs since the 1970s.

This is the problem with people like you and the moron Xebay. You read a little, and all of a sudden you become an expert. At least you don't lie like Xebay and claim to be from an armour unit. If these tanks are so weak and vulnerable against IEDs and anti tank weapons, WHY ARE THEY STILL AROUND? AND....WHAT OTHER WEAPONS SY STEM THAT IS NOT VULNERABLE TO ALL THESE THREATS CAN REPLACE THEM? The answer is they are still around because nothing better is available. If that is the case, they cannot be said to be obsolete if they are still in need.

Every weapon system, even sophisticated ones, can be defeated. U-2 spyplanes have been shot down, stealth fighters have been shot down, Un-manned stealth UAV have been shot down, etc. But just because they can be defeated, it does not mean you have to stop using it. Everyone knows there are 2 dozens good ways to sink an aircraft carrier, but still the US have not stopped using them, and in fact are building more. Only ignorant fools say tanks are no use because of this and that.

FYI, tanks almost never operate in isolation in an urban environment. They are almost always escorted by dismounted infantry, or IFV with AI, and have sniper and UAV overwatch when they enter a town. You can have an anti tank team pop up and take a shot at a tank. But almost immediately, their position would be located. For everyone one tank killed, you can bet many more anti tank teams are eliminated by the escorting infantry or snipers. Most anti tank weapons have to be fired in the open, and not in an enclosed area, so they have to go to a rooftop or something like that. where they are spotted by snipers or UAV. This is tank infantry co-operation and practiced by the US Army in Fallujah and by the IDF in Gaza.

Sometimes tanks are disabled by IEDs but it would have to be a very large one. And usually its a mobility kill not a total kill. This means the tank can still fight. In the Gulf war, there are many reports of M1 driving over land mines, detonating them, but still keep going. Tanks are hard to kill even with modern anti tank weapons, especially those with Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) protection. As well, tanks now have active anti RPG protection like Trophy which identifies and destroys RPG warheads heading towards the tank. The history of tank warfare is one of counter moves. Eg. ATGM missiles like Sagger were countered with ERA. ERA was countered with Tandem RPG warheads. APFSDS rounds were countered with Chobham armour. Now RPG tandem warheads are countered with Trophy system.

Bottom line is every so call death knell of the tank (and this is going back to WW2), has been proven false. Only idiots will prognosticate its demise repeatedly. If you ask any infantry man whether they would like to attack a FIBUA without armour support, they will tell you to fuck off. The use of a tank saves you more casualties on the infantry side if for no other reason than every defenders will shoot at the tank.

BTW, the IDF withdraw from Gaza not because they were repelled. They were withdrawn because the worldwide public opinion was against them, and it was even against them at home. The right way to attack a small urban area like the Gaza is to just level it and you don't have to worry about anyone surviving to shoot at you. But that is politically a no no and the rules of engagement are just too tight for them. And you have CNN all over the fucking place showing pictures of dead palestinian kids and mothers, its almost fighting with kid gloves on. The Russians don't have this problem in Chechnya, and I am sure their tank losses were not that bad. Anyway, for the latest Gaza offensive conducted last year by the IDF, there is no reports of Merkava 4 being destroyed despite all the anti tank weapons you mentioned above.

Below is an excerpt from a West Point Military Academy article:


Anti-Tank Actions
A second key category of Hamas ground action consisted of attacks on Israeli armored vehicles, including tanks, armored personnel carriers (APCs), and armored engineering vehicles. Hamas had specialized anti-tank units equipped with a variety of anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) and RPGs. ATGMs reportedly included the Malyutka, Konkurs, Fagot, and Kornet types.[52] RPGs included the RPG-7 and the modern and capable RPG-29.[53] Hamas attempted to engage IDF armor with ATGMs at long range, and with anti-tank teams in close combat.[54] Hamas also used IEDs and mines against IDF armor, and attempted to draw the IDF into prepared “ambushes” where all anti-tank means could be brought to bear.[55]

Hamas was less effective with these tactics. Not a single IDF tank was confirmed destroyed, nor were any Namer heavy APCs lost in combat. Other armored vehicles appeared more vulnerable, including the aging M113 APC, in which seven Israeli troops were killed in an RPG blast.[56] Armored corps personnel were killed and wounded by sniping and mortar fire, but by and large Hamas anti-tank weapons and tactics were not of great effect.[57] This was due to the Trophy anti-ATGM system employed on Merkava Mk 4 tanks,[58] the protection provided by Merkava tanks and Namer APCs,[59] and probably Israeli tactics that employed heavy firepower against ATGM threats.
 
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frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
you must be another paper general,so enamoured over your classroom theories and textbook crap.why not bring up a few real life examples,wars and encounters.and please dont talk about hamas,they are just a bunch of ragged,starved and deprived rats with party popper rockets that has been embargoed and blockaded by israel into non existence.talk about real armies instead and terrorist groups like the hezbollah well trained well funded heavily armed proxy armies by the iran russian governments or the 1973 yom kippur war.1973 arab israeli war and 2006 lebanon war israeli tank divisions suffered heavy losses from arab use of soviet anti tank technology.their anti tank techology and tactics were proven to be a overwhelming success and a gamechanger and could have won them the war if they had not deviated from the plan.

remember the israelis had overwhelming armor firepower more than 500 tanks in both wars and they were neutralised and defeated by their enemy with "lousy" soviet technology.

heres another report by Janes defense about abrahm losses last year between january and may.....no losses you say?tanks not obsolete you say?what a joke....yeah level the whole place why not just nuke every country in the world that would settle everything,no need to spend 13 billion a year on worthless saf.just buy a couple of cheap discounted nukes from north korean walmart.
 
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frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Iraqi Abrams losses revealed

The armour on five of Iraq's M1A1 Abrams tanks was penetrated by anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) and six helicopters were shot down between 1 January and the end of May, The New York Times quoted an unnamed US official as saying on 13 June.

The official said 28 Iraqi Army Abrams had been damaged in fighting with militants, five of them suffering full armour penetration when hit by ATGMs. The United States supplied 140 refurbished M1A1 Abrams tanks to Iraq between 2010 and 2012. While they have new equipment to improve situational awareness, they do not have the depleted uranium amour package that increases protection over the tank's frontal arc.

The penetration of a tank's armour by a shaped-charge warhead increases the likelihood of crew casualties, but does not necessarily result in the destruction of the vehicle, especially if it has a dedicated ammunition compartment, as in the case of the Abrams.

However, the US official said the Iraqi Army has problems maintaining its Abrams, suggesting it will struggle to get damaged tanks back into service.

At least one video has emerged showing an Abrams 'brew up' after being hit by an ATGM during fighting this year in the western province of Al-Anbar. Militants operating in Al-Anbar have also released images of numerous attacks on other Abrams tanks, including ones involving a 9K11 Kornet ATGM, RPG-7 rocket-propelled grenade launchers, and a M70 Osa rocket launcher. The latter is a Yugoslavian weapon that has been widely used by insurgents in neighbouring Syria, but is rarely seen in Iraq.

The damage inflicted on the tanks has been difficult to assess from the images. These mostly seem to be stills from unreleased videos and tend to show spectacular explosions, but not the state of the vehicles after the attacks.

Only one sequence of images posted on a pro-Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) Twitter account on 6 June appears to show an Abrams actually being destroyed. A militant is seen placing a charge on the tank and an object is also thrown into an open turret hatch. Flames are then seen coming out of the hatches. The fate of the crew is unclear.

Another sequence posted on 28 May purportedly shows the same militant placing a charge on or in the turret of another Abrams in a hull-down position. While the extent of the damage caused by the resulting explosion is unclear, the fact that militants are repeatedly getting close to the tanks suggests the vehicles lack adequate infantry support.

Other types of armoured vehicle in service with the Iraqi Army appear to have suffered higher attrition rates than the Abrams. Militants have released many images showing destroyed or captured Humvees, M113 armoured personnel carriers (APCs), and mine resistant ambush protected (MRAP) vehicles.

The Soviet-era armour the Iraqi Army has been using in Al-Anbar has also suffered losses, including MT-LB multipurpose armoured vehicles, a BMP-1, and T-55 tanks.

The US official also said that six Iraqi helicopters had been shot down and 60 damaged in combat between 1 January and the end of May. This represents a significant proportion of the Iraqi Army Aviation Command's assets. Another helicopter was shot down by a light anti-aircraft gun (LAAG) over Al-Saqlawiyah on 16 June; its two crew members were killed.

It is unclear what helicopters the Iraqis have lost, but militants have released footage shot using an infrared camera of heavy machine guns or LAAGs bringing down at least two Mi-24/35 combat helicopters carrying out low-altitude rocket attacks.

http://www.janes.com/article/39550/iraqi-abrams-losses-revealed
 

xebay11

Alfrescian
Loyal
Hey pappie you want to take a public bet of $ 1million that I have never served in an armoured regiment? Put the money where your mouth is.
 

enterprise2

Alfrescian
Loyal
Why don't u guys test it out? Put pappy in M1 and u guys attack with your rpg and missiles. See who is left standing? Me, my money on the M1!
 

xebay11

Alfrescian
Loyal
Why don't u guys test it out? Put pappy in M1 and u guys attack with your rpg and missiles. See who is left standing? Me, my money on the M1!

Want to bet? You arrange the M1 and rpg and missiles and the place and I will do a mythbusters style test for you.
 

The_Hypocrite

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
"The MBT is Obsolete?"

Ok this is my 2 cents as an Arm Chair warrior. I think for the next 20 years the MBT is still required and remain essential for a conventional army. The issue is their importance is diminishing same with artillery due to advancement in Drone technology and anti armour weapons. For those FIBUA situation, a tank can be a sitting duck if it gets stuck etc,,however if the tanks has a flame thrower like in Vietnam and WW2 it can mitigate the enemy advantage. However I don't see the flame throwers being used as its a very cruel weapon.

For a conventional mechanized war like in WW2 Battle of Kursk etc of course the MBT with control of the skies against another MBT its always better to have a 'better' MBT. However to put a very sophisticated MBT in an urban environment fighting guerillas with RPGs etc, 'Such 'sophistication' is mitigated due to the environment, whereby infantry can go close to the MBT, IEDs and so on. What is needed to fight insurgencies is a more heavily armoured vehicle with maybe lighter weapons for anti personnel situations. What is the use of having SABOT rounds etc which is designed to penetrate the armour of other MBTs when one is fighting infantry?

In a nutshell, the MBT needs to be revamped for the battle environment. If its mechanized warfare, the better the MBT in dealing with another MBT the better. However for the current situation when is very often guerilla warfare than a different weapon system is needed.

I personally do not like the M1A1/2 Abrams as it is very sophisticated and has some turbine engine which does give good performance but its sophisticated, chews a lot of fuel, have limited range and hard to repair. Its like the Tiger tanks in WW2. heavily armoured, big gun but limited endurance, and the Soviets just have to surround it with T34s and just shoot at it. For this sort of guerilla warfare just need a reliable diesel engine, easy to repair and long endurance. If I was not wrong in the 1st gulf war. The MIA1s got ambushed by the Republican Guards after it stop to refuel as the Iraqis new of the range limitation. The Iraqi attack was unsuccessful as the allies had control of the air and pushed the Iraqis back.

Just my rants
 

enterprise2

Alfrescian
Loyal
"The MBT is Obsolete?"

Ok this is my 2 cents as an Arm Chair warrior. I think for the next 20 years the MBT is still required and remain essential for a conventional army. The issue is their importance is diminishing same with artillery due to advancement in Drone technology and anti armour weapons. For those FIBUA situation, a tank can be a sitting duck if it gets stuck etc,,however if the tanks has a flame thrower like in Vietnam and WW2 it can mitigate the enemy advantage. However I don't see the flame throwers being used as its a very cruel weapon.

For a conventional mechanized war like in WW2 Battle of Kursk etc of course the MBT with control of the skies against another MBT its always better to have a 'better' MBT. However to put a very sophisticated MBT in an urban environment fighting guerillas with RPGs etc, 'Such 'sophistication' is mitigated due to the environment, whereby infantry can go close to the MBT, IEDs and so on. What is needed to fight insurgencies is a more heavily armoured vehicle with maybe lighter weapons for anti personnel situations. What is the use of having SABOT rounds etc which is designed to penetrate the armour of other MBTs when one is fighting infantry?

In a nutshell, the MBT needs to be revamped for the battle environment. If its mechanized warfare, the better the MBT in dealing with another MBT the better. However for the current situation when is very often guerilla warfare than a different weapon system is needed.

I personally do not like the M1A1/2 Abrams as it is very sophisticated and has some turbine engine which does give good performance but its sophisticated, chews a lot of fuel, have limited range and hard to repair. Its like the Tiger tanks in WW2. heavily armoured, big gun but limited endurance, and the Soviets just have to surround it with T34s and just shoot at it. For this sort of guerilla warfare just need a reliable diesel engine, easy to repair and long endurance. If I was not wrong in the 1st gulf war. The MIA1s got ambushed by the Republican Guards after it stop to refuel as the Iraqis new of the range limitation. The Iraqi attack was unsuccessful as the allies had control of the air and pushed the Iraqis back.

Just my rants

I read that story about the M1 got stuck and surrounded by Iraqi enemy tanks. They all shot at it but couldn't penetrate it's armour. The M1 then proceeded shooting back destroying the Iraqis tanks!
 

xebay11

Alfrescian
Loyal
I read that story about the M1 got stuck and surrounded by Iraqi enemy tanks. They all shot at it but couldn't penetrate it's armour. The M1 then proceeded shooting back destroying the Iraqis tanks!

Tank to tank warfare, the mbt reigns supreme, it is only the more recent emergence of closed in urban warfare that the vulnerability of mbts start to surface.
 

singveld

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
what the Netherlands and Mexico have no main battle tank

are you crazy???????????????????????

How are they going to fight a modern warfare?
 

xebay11

Alfrescian
Loyal
tanks work in open warfare. The Taliban however didnt need tanks to maim NATO troops.

Exactly and wars these days are more commonly fought in closed in urban areas, which are death traps for any mbt, only pappie chooses to be ignorant and spew nonsense from reading Janes material. Armies will continue to milk current MBTs for now, but are seriously studying other solutions which make MBTs obsolete in the next 15 years.
 
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