• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Can you call a non-English man, an English barrister ?

Forvendet

Alfrescian
Loyal
get your head out of your ass. SInce when have i ever said whites are superior? Moron. I'm the one bringing up ppl whom are partially white or the hypocrisy of the whites.

Get over your own mind for your own good. Even when a topic has nothing to do with race or color, when you come in, you bring it all in.
 
Last edited:

Shalom Huseyn

New Member
English barrister Tan Lee Meng argued his case at the Hague. British surgeon Mr Lee Ah Kow operated on 10 yr old Hamid Aziz who was hit by shrapnel near the battle zone. Tan Lee Meng might be a Singaporean but holds British PR and practices law in England. Lee Ah Kow might also be Singaporean and hold a British PR. No, they cannot be called an English Barrister if they don't practice in the UK. Nationality does not come into play neither does ethnicity. English teacher Khoo Ban Huat had an argument with Maths teacher Sankaran in front of RI lobby. Barrister, Solicitor are not salutary titles

This is not correct - to pass the Bar Exams is simple that - you passed the Bar exams - in order to be called to the Bar of England and Wales, you must pass the Bar exams and complete your Dinings at one of the four Inns of Court (Inner Temple, Grey's Inn, Lincoln's Inner and Middle Temple) - again, alot of students who sit for the professional Bar Exams think that that by being called to the Bar makes them "barristers/barristers at law" - the missing element is pupillage - depending on the type of work one intends to do, you still need to complete pupillage (consisting of either a 12 month stint in chambers sitting with a pupil master or 2-split six month stints in two separate chambers - this usually occurs when you have not been offered a 2nd six-month extension after your first 6-months and then you go on (very rarely available as an option due to the intense competition to even secure a pupillage to begin with) to a second-six pupillage.

The whole purpose of at least completing 12 months pupillage is to get your practice certificate i.e. you have "qualified" as a full barrister but this is worthless unless you have been offered tenancy in chambers. I know of a few Oxford law professors who also did pupillage in chambers in order to start practicing as barristers - no exceptions no matter how renowned the professor is - pupillage is mandatory in order to be considered for tenancy.

A very different track applies to those seeking a career in criminal law work - you do not expect to gain tenancy after 12 months - it is very usual to complete a 3rd six and then "squat" for another 6 months with a view to being offered tenancy. Once again it is very competitive and you are pretty much on your own.

Point to note - pupillages were generally "unfunded" i.e. you sit with your pupil master/in chambers and do not receive any salary as such. This was the traditional route to tenancy. This did change when some chambers started offering "funded" pupillage's - it is not a salary but rather like a "bursary" of sorts - the route to becoming a barrister is prohibitively expensive as a consequence especially since the most reputable chambers are located in London. Some naturally return to their home counties/districts and apply for pupillage there (Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham etc. all have barrister's chambers) - it is still competitive but less expensive than living in London. The more established commercial law chambers in London stepped up in the late 90s and started offering "huge" sums of money - between 24k - 28k pounds sterling was an astronomical figure for a pupillage award. Pupillages in such chambers were offered to between 1 - 4 pupils a years only - and in the end only 1 -2 would be offered a place, if at all. Interviews for pupillage could also be in the form of a written test followed by an interview in front of a panel of 4 - 8 barristers.

Ultimately a barrister is a self-employed lawyer working in a legal-collective organized as "chambers" (this is a crude characterization but serves to illustrate) - each barrister works for himself and how well you do initially depends on how well you get on with your Chief Clerk (who is the first point of contact for law firms looking to brief a barrister) and the other clerks - you are a newbie and have yet to make an impression on the three clients you have to serve i.e. the Chief Clerk, the law firm and their client - as a barrister you are expected to be an expert in the finer points of law - you draft opinions on specific issues usually and the strength of your opinion will determine who the law firm would like to pursue a point in litigation. A barrister must buy everything himself (like setting up your own office) and pay rent for his presence on site. The relationship with the clerks is extremely important as they chase your fees for you and ensure that you have your bills paid - if your client does not pay, you do not get paid.

Criminal pupils are the worse off in many instances - there are rarely funded criminal practice pupillages and it takes up to 24 months to secure a tenancy if one is lucky.

Most importantly for the purpose of this discussion, nationality has nothing to do with it - purely based on merit. If you have strong academics and do well in your Law degree, you have an equally good chance to get offered an interview - pupillages are decided (or at least under the older system they were) before the Bar Finals were taken (of which only 30 per cent. or so would pass in the first instance). So if you get offered a pupillage you needed to pass the Bar later otherwise you would have lost a shot at tenancy and have to reapply with the next batch of Bar students and others who were not successful in your year.

The previous deviation to getting your practice certificate would be to do an unfunded pupillage without a view to tenancy - i.e. you would apply for the pupillage and request for consideration on the basis that you merely wanted 12 months work experience so as to return to your home country - previously come chambers were willing to consider such pupils. This was useful for those who wanted to be associated with pupillage at a star set of chambers (Brick Court Chambers, Essex Court, Fountain Court etc.) and then leverage off that experience to get into a top law firm in the UK or US or Singapore.

So if you are Singaporean (or non-British national), you can still be called an English barrister if you have passed your Bar exams and completed pupillage - but you are an English-trained barrister not an English-practising barrister. "English" in the sense it is used at the Bar is that one is English-common law versed and trained - not that you have English PR or nationality.

P.S> A lot of Commonwealth Bar students tend to join Lincoln's Inn - the Pakistanis in particular do so because Jinnah was called to the Bar there - those that pass go back to Pakistan and call themselves "barristers' even though they never completed pupillage in chambers in the UK.

Another interesting point about the profession is that some older barristers shy away from taking silk/being appointed as QC - what effectively happens is that barrister's practice collapses as he has to start all over again - the rates for QCs and the types of cases QCs are referred to exclude the usual type of cases that a "normal" barrister scan be instructed on.
 

Shalom Huseyn

New Member
The (English) Bar Council website does explain it further:

Rights of Audience
Any person who has been called to the Bar automatically has rights of audience. However, in order to be able to exercise those rights of audience, further experience is required. The following questions will assist you in determining whether or not you are able to exercise rights of audience, and whether or not you are able to practise as a barrister.


(having rights of audience does not equate to automatic right to exercise it - the practice certificate embodies the entitlement)

If you establish that you are able to practise as a barrister, with or without rights of audience, you will need a practising certificate in order to do so.

If you intend to supply legal services without a practising certificate, please refer to the notes at 206.1 of the Code of Conduct


Simple online 3-step test to ascertain is one is qualified:

When were you called to the Bar?

Before 1/1/2002

or

After 1/1/2002


If before 1/1/2002:

Have you completed pupillage?

Yes

or

NO


If yes:

Have you worked for at least three years following the completion of pupillage either in chambers, or with a Qualified Person in employed practice since 31 July 2000? This period of three years need not be consecutive, and can be made up of both self-employed and employed practice. [see notes below]

YES

or

NO


If yes:

You are entitled to practise as a self-employed or employed barrister (including for a firm of solicitors). You are entitled to exercise full higher court rights of audience and may also become a sole practitioner.


The bit I did not elaborate on was the other alternative form of pupillage (non-chambers) available and the "employed barrister" route i.e. you qualify as an English-law trained barrister but are not offered tenancy - such individuals are allowed to practice as "employed" barristers i.e. you are a lawyer with a law-firm and are an employee working for a salary like solicitors.

This alternative form of pupillage was introduced because many Bar students complained that despite their expensive investment in studying for the Bar exams, so few were given the chance/opportunity to complete pupillage and even then, to practice in Chambers.

There has been lots of discussion about merging the two professions and abolishing the institution of barristers altogether - there has been lots of resistance from barristers and to date the two remain separate and distinct and regulated by separate bodies - The Bar Council and The Law Society

Another footnote is that some employed barristers then sit the Law Society Exams and re-register as solicitors - the "rights of audience" gap has been slightly narrowed under decade-old reforms to the entire profession - some solicitors are qualify for rights of audience and can appear in the the lower courts - however, the English Bar has remained resilient and the distinction continues.

I am not sure whether Tan Mee Leng has an English Bar Council practice certificate - if he does then he is an "English barrister" - if he only ever qualified as a solicitor and is admitted to the English Solicitor's Roll, then he is an "English-qualified" solicitor.

The route to becoming a solicitor in the UK does not require sitting the Bar Exams as they have a different system which includes a written exam and 24 months training (training contract consisting of 4-setas each 6-months duration with a law form).- also, under the English system, you do not need a Law degree from your undergraduate days to become either a barrister or solicitor - there is a post-grad "conversion" course which tests the fundamental components of English law - passing this then leads to qualifying for consideration for either the Bar exam or solicitor's exam (the Legal Practice Course).

The various permutations stem from the historic split in the profession in the UK - in Singapore, there is no such distinct split.

I am not aware of many Singaporeans who have have completed the full fledged training as barristers - I am not sure whether JBJ or LKY even did this - even though the Bar and its rules have evolved, the basic requirements have remained and pupillage with tenancy is the bedrock of that particular (and peculiar) institution.
 
Top